OSR Why B/X?

[Dyson Logos]

I was in a B/X game and brought my RC. Someone made a comment of, "I hate that book".
Yet it was used three times to look up odd ball things not in B/X during the game.

While I can see this, one of the reasons I love B/X over RC is that 128 pages of larger print means that those odd ball things are up to DM & player adjudication instead of digging weird rules up out of the books.

 

[Willie the Duck]

Just out of curiosity, why is B/X the (current) focus of the OSR community? Why not AD&D or 2E or BECMI? What makes B/X (and by extension OSE) the primary tool for folks dipping into Old School D&D?

I said "current" because I remember when it first started with OSRIC and that dominated initially.

I think the primary reason is that the bare-bonedness of B/X leaves the least number of jutting surfaces which might conflict with whatever the OSR-product-maker is grafting on to traditional D&D.
As you say, the initial OSR push was for retroclones like OSRIC. However, those have all been made*. Now, most OSR game that are being made are 'old school D&D, but with <some hook>'. That hook can be genre changes or expansive worldbuilding rules or a new interpretation on thief skills or name-level domain management or whatever the designer finds most interesting to play around with. It's possible that those things that oD&D or AD&D or BECMI have that B/X does not will work just fine with this new thing, but they might not. Certainly whatever purpose they served or were intended to address are likely to have been changed by the hook, so their purpose in the game is going to have to be re-assessed. Easier, perhaps, just to use the B/X framework and add back any AD&D-isms one finds appealing.
*with the occasional 'no, this is the real iconic <D&D version X>-with-the-serial-numbers-filed -off. I used a flat coarse file instead of a half-round bastard file'

I've never been clear why B/X is preferred over BECMI. My current working theory is that the "CMI" part, with its focus on domain-level play, the quest for Immortality, and then playing an Immortal, clashes with the low-fantasy aesthetic that the OSR prefers.

I don't know if it is the aesthetics (why vary widely in the OSR), or it is simply an existing hook that again conflicts with whatever hook the developer is choosing for this specific OSR system. If I'm making a game that explains what a character wants to do with themselves after the whole 'crawl through dungeons (later wilderness) for fame and fortune' phase, then I don't have much use for the domain rules or quest for immortality.

I'll also say that, and I say this as someone who has played more BECMI than any other type of TSR-era A/D&D, there are parts of it that are... less exciting than others. Of the CMI portion, the C-set domain level play (and associated seige&stronghold, mass combat, and related rules) seems... well, it seems like it was included because someone thought someone might need it. It doesn't feel especially evocative or engaging, and that's often where our campaigns petered out (or we went far off-script, with house rules and new ideas about what gaming at that level would look like*). The quest for immortality is conceptually exciting, often reinvigorating our campaigns. The limit there was that it was extremely DM/group-dependent, with very little rules structure (so something an enterprising developer might want to put their own spin on). Once you got to actually being Immortals, we never really were all that clear what an immortal PC was supposed to do, or even want.
*perhaps something to make an OSR game around.

 

[Reynard]

I grew up on BECMI, having started with the Red Box in 1985 and not discovering AD&D until 4 years later (right before 2E came out). My favorite parts of BECMI are the War Machine and Domain rules, which I ported over to 2E back then and still use today. 2E (core rules) is hands down my favorite old version of the game, and one of the things I liked about 5E at first was how much it harkened back to that design philosophy.

 

[Parmandur]

As someone with no experience of Basic in any form, this seems pretty straightforward:

1. B/X was hands down the best selling version of TSR D&D. It's where the nostalgia is at, not BECMI or even AD&D (either of 'em)

2. WotC modern data shows that the vast majority of tables stop campaigns by about Level 11 or 12, and start back up at Level 1. Looking at the 5E previous Edition conversion document, that means people stop playing in the Expert Levels, so CMI are entirely superfluous to most tables.

3. If you put out a retro facing, cleaned up AD&D...how is that appreciably different than 5E? Nor a wide open market position.

 

[Voadam]

The basic line and B/X specifically has a couple advantageous things going for it.

It is more stripped down to core stuff than AD&D. Spells have level range and duration, no lines about components or spell schools. Monster stat blocks are cleaner in B/X. No resurrection survival aspect to Constitution, no bend/bars lift gates super niche part of strength. No weapon proficiencies to limit PC weapon options. If you find a magic trident you can pick it up and immediately use it as well as you could a longsword.

You don't have to worry as much about fiddly specifics, you can go off core concepts and implement quickly. You can focus more on weird or engaging narrative concepts and less on fiddly mechanics.

For writing modules and game materials this can be attractive.

As a player this allows both a focus on the in the moment narrative aspects of playing and is easier for players new to the game.

Ability modifiers are on a simple +1-+3 scale instead of the reverse bell curve edge modifiers of AD&D, this means generating 3d6 in order is not a huge limiting power hit the way it is in AD&D. Also the options are not gated behind high scores so a fighter is a top line kick butt warrior instead of the backup option for those without the stats to go paladin or ranger.

In B/X you can buy platemail as starting equipment and have top line AC from the get go and be mostly consistent in gear and image throughout an adventuring career. In AD&D you have to build up to buying mundane plate mail so there will be gear trade ins.

Basic weapons are fairly straightforward while AD&D ones have a lot of fiddlyness (attack adjustment vs specific ACs, one handed broadsword versus one handed longsword with mechanical differences) and some mechanical optimization on weapon stats as they are not all balanced options.

Moldvay Basic was great in explaining concisely and teaching D&D and being complete in 64 pages. BECMI Basic split things between players and DM books and their DIY adventure to introduce you. B/X basic was all useful even after you learned how to play. AD&D was not a concise 64 pages.

B/X was also designed a little more tightly to the dungeon exploration experience with many activities being tied to the 10-minute turn for both PC actions (checking an area for traps, which anyone can do) to how long torches last and how long between random encounter checks.

B/X focused on dungeons and wilderness adventuring. It is all direct experience adventuring. BECMI brings in the stage where you stop adventuring and you start administering property and engaging in politics.

BECMI also had weapon mastery, which was pretty cool, but introduced more concept specialization and some system mastery in some choices.

 

[Celebrim]

Takes less effort to write.

 

[Cruentus]

As a player this allows both a focus on the in the moment narrative aspects of playing and is easier for players new to the game.

Ability modifiers are on a simple +1-+3 scale instead of the reverse bell curve edge modifiers of AD&D, this means generating 3d6 in order is not a huge limiting power hit the way it is in AD&D. Also the options are not gated behind high scores so a fighter is a top line kick butt warrior instead of the backup option for those without the stats to go paladin or ranger.

In B/X you can buy platemail as starting equipment and have top line AC from the get go and be mostly consistent in gear and image throughout an adventuring career. In AD&D you have to build up to buying mundane plate mail so there will be gear trade ins.

These are the big ones for our group. We wanted 1) something simpler than 5e, 2) something where you didn't "pilot" your character sheet, worrying about what buttons to push for maximum efficiency, and looking for answers there; and 3) we wanted emergent character development and gameplay. We didn't find those in 5e, but did in B/X and then OSE/Advanced.

We also liked decision points as basic as "do I wear the best armor around at the expense of movement" or do I go lighter, etc., and how those impacted our explorations outside and inside of dungeons.

It was also simpler. Less splat, less books, less expansions. We did get BECMI/RC, but would be cutting out 80% of it anyway to play B/X, so didn't feel the need for the added complexity (have you seen weapon mastery?!?). We could (and do) add in elements of other RPG's that we like, and its easier to bolt on, or replace a section to fit what we want.

When I tried that with 5e, it had lots of trickle down effects. And we don't really care for high level play, so the 10th level or so for those books is perfectly in our wheelhouse.

And my "no stat higher than 12" Fighter did perfectly well in our campaign, and made it to 5th level before that campaign stopped and we moved to another.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

3. If you put out a retro facing, cleaned up AD&D...how is that appreciably different than 5E? Nor a wide open market position.

It'd be a lot closer to C&C, honestly, to which 5E has a lot of design similarities, let's say, before then piling on additional complexity.

 

[overgeeked]

Just out of curiosity, why is B/X the (current) focus of the OSR community? Why not AD&D or 2E or BECMI? What makes B/X (and by extension OSE) the primary tool for folks dipping into Old School D&D?

Welcome back.

B/X is the edition a lot of people started with back in the day, so there's a lot of nostalgia. It's also the simplest version of the game, next to OD&D. While a fair few people started with OD&D, a lot more started with B/X. It's also the easiest to mod because it's (almost) the simplest. A few tweaks and you can replicated AD&D and 2E. See OSE Advanced Fantasy as an example. It's kind of the catchall for old-school D&D. Is there a TSR version of D&D you like? Then B/X can easily handle it. There are a few tweaks and changes to the rules between B/X and the AD&D line, of course, but they're not that big. So if you produce stuff for B/X, it's easily modified to fit OD&D, AD&D, AD&D 2E. Starting with AD&D or 2E then trying to fit that into B/X or OD&D is a bit more work. So ease of use.

 

[Reynard]

Welcome back.

Thank you! I missed (most of) this community but every once in a while I need to force myself to take a break.

B/X is the edition a lot of people started with back in the day, so there's a lot of nostalgia. It's also the simplest version of the game, next to OD&D. While a fair few people started with OD&D, a lot more started with B/X. It's also the easiest to mod because it's (almost) the simplest. A few tweaks and you can replicated AD&D and 2E. See OSE Advanced Fantasy as an example. It's kind of the catchall for old-school D&D. Is there a TSR version of D&D you like? Then B/X can easily handle it. There are a few tweaks and changes to the rules between B/X and the AD&D line, of course, but they're not that big. So if you produce stuff for B/X, it's easily modified to fit OD&D, AD&D, AD&D 2E. Starting with AD&D or 2E then trying to fit that into B/X or OD&D is a bit more work. So ease of use.

I feel like B/X and OSE are being embraced by the people new to OSR as much as the old guard. Which I find interesting, considering that the game plays so viciously and procedurally. Sure, there are fewer rules, but it does have rules and many of them are essentially arbitrary. I am wondering what folks today -- whether new or old -- find attractive about that. For my part, if I were to run something OSR it would definitely be 2E (core only) with eventual inclusion of the War Machine and Domain rules from BECMI.