Dodkong minions

[Casimir Liber]

ok wight tweaked to here

 

[Casimir Liber]

Now I'm thinking of statting up my own version of this critter.

It depends how energetic I'm feeling (and whether I get distracted by something else!).

ok is a while since I looked at this one. In 1e and 5e, wraiths are generally more formidable adversaries than wights, so thinking it should have more hit points (say 240-250) or so - so 21d12 + 105 (for CON 20) = 242.

happy to recycle soul drain (seems a bit insubstantial for death grip). And see where to go from there

 

[Cleon]

ok is a while since I looked at this one. In 1e and 5e, wraiths are generally more formidable adversaries than wights, so thinking it should have more hit points (say 240-250) or so - so 21d12 + 105 (for CON 20) = 242.

If that's the case why have you made it Challenge 13 when the Cairn Wight is 16?

Wouldn't be too hung up on the relative strengths of a standard Wight and Wraith, since these are unique Stone Giant Undead.

I'm assuming that the Cairn Wights are going to be the Dodkong's most powerful servants, since the original 3E description of his kingdom had 20 of them as its head honchos.

So the Cairn Wight is more like a Nazgul or Death Knight than an ordinary Common Wight. They're the Big Bads top lieutenants, not necropolis cannon fodder.

Regarding the Cairn Wraiths, I was imagining them as being somewhat comparable to Shadows strengthwise, which'd make them a bit lower on the undead hierarchy than a Cairn Wight. They've got all those "shadowy powers" after all.

Furthermore, I'm thinking the Cairn Wraiths should have a low enough CR it'd be practical to have one or maybe two of them team up with a Cairn Wight and a bunch of Cairn Zombies or Shadows for a serious encounter that isn't so overwhelmingly lethal the PCs would have little or no chance of surviving it.

That'd likely also involve dropping the Legendary Actions and maybe even making them CR 12 or less.

Primarily just to keep the encounter complexity manageable. It's best to have only one or at most two enemies in an encounter have Legendary Actions. If there's a whole bunch of them, the poor DM will have trouble keeping track of it all.

Think of Cairn Wraith as being like Spectres, which suffered a major power drop in 5E to become weaker than a Wraith. Spectres in early editions of AD&D were more powerful than Wraiths, the 5E version is not only a fraction as powerful as a Wraith, it's barely stronger than a Shadow.

 

[Cleon]

Oh, I had a glance through the Dodkong and its attacks and DCs are all to low. Its melee attacks and rock throwing should all be +14 to hit, not +11.

If its spellcasting is CHA-based it should be DC 21 not 20.

Also, its exhaustion-inflicting attacks should either be DC 21 (if CON-based) or DC 20 (if CHA-based) rather than DC 15.

Speaking of which:

ok wight tweaked to here

So you didn't fancy making the Cairn Wight's exhaustion drain a CON-based DC?

Contrariwise, at most the Cairn Wight (Undead Stone Giant) can only do four levels of exhaustion per round, two with its standard Action and two as a Legendary Action, and the target has to fail two DC 10 Constitution saves for that to happen (since it must miss its DC 15 CON save by 5 or more).

Now that I think of it, that DC seems extraordinarily low for a Challenge 16 creature. The recommended DC for a CR 16 creature is 18 after all.

While I did deliberately gimp the DC by making it CHA-based instead of CON-based like a standard Wight, maybe we should go back to the default and make it CON-based for the Cairn Wight, which'd give its Death Grip and Soul Drain DC 19 (so the target would have to miss a DC 14 to get two levels of exhaustion, which is pretty easy for a Challenge-appropriate PC).

Should I update the Cairn Wight (Undead Stone Giant) with DC 19 for its life sapping special attacks?

 

[Cleon]

Furthermore, I'm thinking the Cairn Wraiths should have a low enough CR it'd be practical to have one or maybe two of them team up with a Cairn Wight and a bunch of Cairn Zombies or Shadows for a serious encounter that isn't so overwhelmingly lethal the PCs would have little or no chance of surviving it.

The opposite issue occurs with the Dodkong.

If it's Challenge 25 you can't have it be accompanied by its minions in the fight against the PCs.

Do you want it to be a Solo Boss encounter or have the Dodkong in its "throne room" with some Cairn undead courtiers to back it up?

If the latter, wouldn't the Dodkong need to be a bit lower CR? With how much lower depending on the CR of its undead allies.

 

[Casimir Liber]

Furthermore, I'm thinking the Cairn Wraiths should have a low enough CR it'd be practical to have one or maybe two of them team up with a Cairn Wight and a bunch of Cairn Zombies or Shadows for a serious encounter that isn't so overwhelmingly lethal the PCs would have little or no chance of surviving it.

That'd likely also involve dropping the Legendary Actions and maybe even making them CR 12 or less.

Primarily just to keep the encounter complexity manageable. It's best to have only one or at most two enemies in an encounter have Legendary Actions. If there's a whole bunch of them, the poor DM will have trouble keeping track of it all.

Think of Cairn Wraith as being like Spectres, which suffered a major power drop in 5E to become weaker than a Wraith. Spectres in early editions of AD&D were more powerful than Wraiths, the 5E version is not only a fraction as powerful as a Wraith, it's barely stronger than a Shadow.

Okay I can live with that (the CR 13 I had forgotten to adjust anyway)...ok. If bring HD down to 14d12(+70), that gives 161hp and a good place to work from. I have found the legendary actions really fun to play with though so would prefer to keep them.

 

[Casimir Liber]

Dodkong will be a solo boss - on it (and fixing wight) a bit later today.

 

[Casimir Liber]

So you didn't fancy making the Cairn Wight's exhaustion drain a CON-based DC?

Umm. Yes...? It is CON-based DC in mine...unless I'm missing one??

 

[Cleon]

Okay I can live with that (the CR 13 I had forgotten to adjust anyway)...ok. If bring HD down to 14d12(+70), that gives 161hp and a good place to work from. I have found the legendary actions really fun to play with though so would prefer to keep them.

Easy solution: just make two versions.

A "Cairn Wraith" with a higher Challenge as a boss monster with Legendary Actions. Maybe it's the Dodkong's spy chief or vizier?

Then a lower Challenge "Cairn Wraith" that are courtiers or attendants to the Legendary Monsters which are weak enough a few can be thrown into the encounter as backup for their boss.

Just give them different names or a qualifier. Hewing to oldschool undead rankings the big cheese could be a Cairn Wraith (or perhaps THE Cairn Wraith) and the other ones Cairn Shadows, but I'd be tempted to personalize the name a bit more, particularly for the most powerful of them.

Maybe give it a title like "Cairn Wraithlord" or "Cairn Wraith (The Jarl of Shadows)" to add a bit of emphasis?

 

[Cleon]

Umm. Yes...? It is CON-based DC in mine...unless I'm missing one??

The "ok wight tweaked to here" you posted has "it must succeed on a DC 15 Constitution saving throw" in Death Grip and Soul Drain, meaning those DCs are still CHA-based:

DC = base 8 plus CHA +2 plus Proficiency +5 = DC 15​

If we switch to CON-based the saving throws would be DC 19:

DC = base 8 plus CON +6 plus Proficiency +5 = DC 19​

The question is, which do you prefer?