D&D 5E Exhaustion for old 1e undead level drain

[Lyxen]

(bold added) Not directed at @Lyxen.

IME if your DM is only attacking from the front, that isn't very exciting.

I'm not saying that my DM(s) do, I'm not saying that I do it as a DM, I'm just saying that, statistically, when you look at fights, it is what is happening fairly frequently. For example, assuming that the adventurers start the fight 50% of the time, 50% of the time it's what is going to happen.

When I DM, I often attack from multiple directions, so there is really no place for casters to go to be safe since the parties aren't large enough to circle them

Of course, things like that happen, but do they happen every fight ? I don't think so, moreover even if the fights start that way, the martial will position themselves next to the threat to attack it or intercept it.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I'm not saying that my DM(s) do, I'm not saying that I do it as a DM, I'm just saying that, statistically, when you look at fights, it is what is happening fairly frequently. For example, assuming that the adventurers start the fight 50% of the time, 50% of the time it's what is going to happen.

Sure, that was why I wanted you to know my comment wasn't directed at you, but in general to all groups/DMs.

Of course, things like that happen, but do they happen every fight ? I don't think so, moreover even if the fights start that way, the martial will position themselves next to the threat to attack it or intercept it.

Every time? Of course not!

Very often? Yes.

Why? Because the parties usually face encounters with superior numbers, and often on the enemies' home turf, so they know the lay of the land, as it were. Intelligence foes will work to gain the best advantage against the invading "party", including targeting casters, positioning themselves to make it harder for the martials to gain their best position, etc.

When I've sat in on other groups or watched novice DMs, making combat to "direct and simple" is often one of the biggest mistakes IMO.

 

[Lyxen]

Very often? Yes.

And this is where I disagree.

Why? Because the parties usually face encounters with superior numbers

Actually no, they don't, not under 5e where action economy is so vital. If you look at published adventures, I certainly don't think that you can say that the partie "usually" face superior numbers, I would say that on average it's equal.

and often on the enemies' home turf, so they know the lay of the land, as it were. Intelligence foes will work to gain the best advantage against the invading "party", including targeting casters, positioning themselves to make it harder for the martials to gain their best position, etc.

This is assuming that enemies are intelligent, they are not necessarily so.

When I've sat in on other groups or watched novice DMs, making combat to "direct and simple" is often one of the biggest mistakes IMO.

First no, nothing says that. You can have simple and direct combats which are very enjoyable too Not every combat has to be a 2 hours to an evening long fight. Our games focus much more on the story and roleplaying than on the combat, some of the combat are complex and involved, others are straightforward and still fun, etc.

So, in total, if I take into account all the factors:

• Some combat can be simple and direct
• Players initiate combat 50% of the time or so
• Adversaries are not necessarily intelligent
• The terrain might not be proper for surrounding and ambushes
• The marching order of the party puts the martial at the front and back, the casters in the middle
• The martials will intercept threats if only to attack them
• And probably many more...

This goes to show that, even with a DM spending time on making fights entertaining and sometimes unusual, there is a fairly high likelihood that martial will be the target of old-fashioned level drain. And this matches 20+ years playing BECMI/AD&D experience in clubs.

 

[Maxperson]

Why? Even though the first two levels of 3.5Ed’s fatigue progression most negatively affect melee characters, you have to remember there’s only 4 levels of fatigue before unconsciousness. That means any PC, regardless of level, is 4 drains away from being helpless.

In a game with energy draining undead doing so with every hit, or casters armed with energy draining weapons and spells including cantrips, the challenge is keeping the party from getting killed.

If the easy saves vs. energy drain remain, as well as the second save to recover, it might not be so bad.

 

[DND_Reborn]

And this is where I disagree.



Actually no, they don't, not under 5e where action economy is so vital. If you look at published adventures, I certainly don't think that you can say that the partie "usually" face superior numbers, I would say that on average it's equal.



This is assuming that enemies are intelligent, they are not necessarily so.



First no, nothing says that. You can have simple and direct combats which are very enjoyable too Not every combat has to be a 2 hours to an evening long fight. Our games focus much more on the story and roleplaying than on the combat, some of the combat are complex and involved, others are straightforward and still fun, etc.

So, in total, if I take into account all the factors:

• Some combat can be simple and direct
• Players initiate combat 50% of the time or so
• Adversaries are not necessarily intelligent
• The terrain might not be proper for surrounding and ambushes
• The marching order of the party puts the martial at the front and back, the casters in the middle
• The martials will intercept threats if only to attack them
• And probably many more...

This goes to show that, even with a DM spending time on making fights entertaining and sometimes unusual, there is a fairly high likelihood that martial will be the target of old-fashioned level drain. And this matches 20+ years playing BECMI/AD&D experience in clubs.

Boy, you just love to argue with anyone don't you?

Disagree all you want, I stand by what I said, which matches more than 40+ years of playing BECMI/AD&D in dozens of groups.
YMMV, of course.

 

[Lyxen]

Boy, you just love to argue with anyone don't you?

Yes, I do, assuming that people have arguments. Yes, the DM may set up a number of unusual fights now and then, it does not change the vast majority of fights. The main problem is that people in general are bad at statistics, and argue from the position of exceptions. I'm not saying that they don't happen, I'm just saying that the main characteristic of exceptions is that they are exceptional.

And even if the rare DM would create fights where the majority of monsters don't attack from the front, I don't think it would be interesting for the players, as it would be in effect always negating whatever tactic they might have (marching order, preparing fights, their own tactics, etc.).

Disagree all you want, I stand by what I said. YMMV, of course.

Of course.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

What energy draining cantrips are there?

If the easy saves vs. energy drain remain, as well as the second save to recover, it might not be so bad.

Ray of Enfeeblement. While it doesn’t drain life like undead, it DOES sap Str. And 3.5Ed’s Fatigue rules also sap Str.

So when you move to a fatigue mechanism for life draining, both the cantrip (and similar effects) are suddenly doing the same thing. It’s a LOT easier to get someone to 0 Str in a group of life-draining undead with even a low-level caster.

 

[DND_Reborn]

The main problem is that people in general are bad at statistics, and argue from the position of exceptions

FYI, I have a Master's in Mathematics (concentrations Statistics and Differential Equations)... so, I am not one of the "people in general" you might otherwise normally argue with. I know the statistics of my own games and those I've participated in or watched.

And what might be exceptions in your games/experience, is common enough in mine to make such things factors.

But I have other things to do so you can reply and get in the last word about it if you must. Later.

 

[Lyxen]

FYI, I have a Master's in Mathematics (concentrations Statistics and Differential Equations)... so, I am not one of the "people in general" you might otherwise normally argue with. I know the statistics of my own games and those I've participated in or watched.

Good for you, still people are bad at stats, in particular intuitive ones.

And what might be exceptions in your games/experience, is common enough in mine to make such things factors.

Again, good for you, but since you have such stats, I would be interested to see how the party tactics actually interferes with your statistics. In our games, about half the fights are started by the PCs, so you can bet that they are making sure that the casters are at the back when this happens.

 

[overgeeked]

Then you should definitely experiment with an exhaustion mechanic for life draining.

Like I was saying of the 3.5Ed version, it was plenty dangerous. I was trying to figure out how and when creature or spell based drains with this mechanism could actually be used without virtually guaranteeing TPKs.

Why? Even though the first two levels of 3.5Ed’s fatigue progression most negatively affect melee characters, you have to remember there’s only 4 levels of fatigue before unconsciousness. That means any PC, regardless of level, is 4 drains away from being helpless.

In a game with energy draining undead doing so with every hit, or casters armed with energy draining weapons and spells including cantrips, the challenge is keeping the party from getting killed.

Keeping characters alive is up to the players, not the DM.