D&D (2024) Playtest 6: Rogue and Cunning Strike

[Gradine]

 

[TwoSix]

You see a lot of level 5 parties capable of taking on 4 dragons 4 manticores 4 banshees... 4 etc? Flying monsters are frequently made to be the main if not only threat in encounters with them. You can't simply throw in an army of them or strip flight away while the monster remains useful as an interesting monster because doing so changes it to an exp pinyata

You're bouncing back and forth, man. Like, a lot.

If there's one big flyer, lots of classes have ways to take down a flyer. Rogue just becomes another one.

For the attack that causes prone becoming at-will to be a serious, possibly OP, concern, then there needs to be a use case where being able to inflict that status 4-5 times in succession breaks the encounter, but only be able to do inflict that status once does not.

If a 4 flyer encounter isn't that use case, then what's the use case?

 

[mellored]

I feel like there was a point already made to counter this and it was not even one made by me
So again, name the classes that can do it every round of every encounter through an entire adventuring day adventuring day after adventuring day & what abilities they are using to do it from 100+ feet away.

Hypnotic pattern.

As you pointed out, the game is designed for multiple creatures. So it will be pretty easy to make the enemies lose more turns than the rogue will.

 

[tetrasodium]

You're bouncing back and forth, man. Like, a lot.

If there's one big flyer, lots of classes have ways to take down a flyer. Rogue just becomes another one.

For the attack that causes prone becoming at-will to be a serious, possibly OP, concern, then there needs to be a use case where being able to inflict that status 4-5 times in succession breaks the encounter, but only be able to do inflict that status once does not.

If a 4 flyer encounter isn't that use case, then what's the use case?

That frustration being voiced in your post is the realization starting to form that the ability is a problem for too many encounter types for the simple one off justifications for one particular encounter type. The ability wrecks all of them to an unjustifiable degree

Hypnotic pattern.

As you pointed out, the game is designed for multiple creatures. So it will be pretty easy to make the enemies lose more turns than the rogue will.

Last I checked hypnotic pattern is still a leveled spell rather than a cantrip in the 2024 lists. A level 5 caster who uses literally every single slot on hypnotic pattern will have nine casts, which is less than half the number of arrows a level 1 PC can have during character creation. It's also less than half the arrows a PC can buy for 1gp to fill a 1gp quiver. At a combined total of 2 pounds the lack of body slots or completed container rules would allow an 8 strength PC to carry hundreds of arrows using the encumbrance rules still designed to be self nullifying. In fact, a level 18 caster is the first time a caster will have the same number of total spell slots as 2gp can buy alongside a quiver.

 

[mellored]

Last I checked hypnotic pattern is still a
leveled spell rather than a cantrip in the 2024 lists. A level 5 caster who uses literally every single slot on hypnotic pattern will have nine casts, which is less than half the number of arrows a level 1 PC can have during character creation

last I checked you asked about doing it every round of every encounter.

And hypnotic pattern lasts 10 rounds.

Easily enough to cover all rounds of all encounters.

It's also an AoE, which is important in a game where you are expected to face multiple enemies (sneak attack is limited to 1), and cost 0 gold.

 

[HammerMan]

Rogue is funny it is the martial class I see complained about the least but it seems to just get better and better as Ranger and Fighter bearly get a buff

 

[HammerMan]

why would the wizard sorcerer artificer or warlock not be able to be 1st level? it is a 1st level spell

That was my first thought too

 

[Shadowedeyes]

Liking the changes. Rogue in the first playtest was kinda meh overall, but the Cunning Strike stuff is solid, and Reliable Talent coming earlier is nice as well.

 

[Pauln6]

That’s a substantial nerf to it at low levels.

I'm not sure it's substantial since you stll need to use a finesse weapon suppose you could either double weapon damage and sneak attack damage and specify that the damage isn't doubled if you also score a critical hit.

Or rule that you inflict 3d6 additional sneak attack damage or double your sneak dice, whichever is greater. Does that take you to level 5? The complaint was that the new version is overpowered for certain multiclasses. A standard assassin no longer has to secure surprise so it's more a case the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. The question is whether you have a net positive. You can still crit as normal as well.

 

[TwoSix]

That frustration being voiced in your post is the realization starting to form that the ability is a problem for too many encounter types for the simple one off justifications for one particular encounter type. The ability wrecks all of them to an unjustifiable degree

Any "frustration" is caused purely when people miss the obvious point that being an at-will isn't a particularly major upgrade to the potency of a utility feature. Since you're arguing about arrows and such, you're engaging in that particular fallacy.