D&D (2024) Playtest 6: Rogue and Cunning Strike

[Chaosmancer]

Man, I almost hate how good this is. Collecting some thoughts.

Obscuring strike may need to be reduced down to 2d6, Blinding an enemy can be good, but most of the value comes from allies, the rogue won't really benefit from it.

There are some insane combos here.

For example: You are a rogue, you have two scimitars. You attack and miss, so you attack with your off-hand and hit. You could activate Withdraw and retreat, but since you utilized Nick, you still have your bonus action to disengage. But maybe you withdraw anyways, into cover and use cunning action to hide.

If you are a Thief Rogue, you can pull a faceless assassin, cutting down enemies while remaining hidden, so long as you either have good cover, or can reach good cover after every attack.


One negative I see? Vex is rarely useful for a rogue who can be hidden or sniping near constantly. A rogue Swashbuckler is about the only one who will be interested in the rapier for Vex.

Oh, and speaking of the Swashbuckler, Awe is good. Awe is SUPER GOOD. Because you can't attack a creature that has charmed you, a Swashbuckler who successfully pulls off multiple awes can one v one duel an entire platoon. They have an ability to counter-act being ganged up on, one of the rogue's biggest weaknesses and one of the most iconic swashbuckler abilities.

Seriously, this rogue is sickeningly good.

 

[Charlaquin]

Man, I almost hate how good this is. Collecting some thoughts.

Obscuring strike may need to be reduced down to 2d6, Blinding an enemy can be good, but most of the value comes from allies, the rogue won't really benefit from it.

There are some insane combos here.

For example: You are a rogue, you have two scimitars. You attack and miss, so you attack with your off-hand and hit. You could activate Withdraw and retreat, but since you utilized Nick, you still have your bonus action to disengage. But maybe you withdraw anyways, into cover and use cunning action to hide.

If you are a Thief Rogue, you can pull a faceless assassin, cutting down enemies while remaining hidden, so long as you either have good cover, or can reach good cover after every attack.

One negative I see? Vex is rarely useful for a rogue who can be hidden or sniping near constantly. A rogue Swashbuckler is about the only one who will be interested in the rapier for Vex.

Well, the flip side of “Vex is rarely useful for a rogue who can be hidden or sniping near constantly” is “A rogue with a Vex weapon doesn’t need to be hidden or sniping near constantly.” It’s good for the same reason Withdraw and Sneak Strike are still good even though rogues can use Disengage or Hide as a bonus action - having multiple different ways to accomplish the same thing using different resources gives you more flexibility. A rapier-using rogue doesn’t need to hide or use Steady Aim to get advantage, which frees them up to use their movement, bonus action, and now Cunning Strike on other things.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Fair enough, I just know most rogues still like hiding, because that means they aren't getting attacked.

 

[Charlaquin]

Also, with the wording in the current UA, you don’t have to actually choose between Vex and Nick. Nothing about Nick says both weapons need to have it, so dual-wield rogues can go shortsword + scimitar to get the best of both worlds. Which IMO is needed for melee rogues to keep up with ranged rogues using Vex on shortbows or hand crossbows with Steady Aim

 

[TwoSix]

Also, with the wording in the current UA, you don’t have to actually choose between Vex and Nick. Nothing about Nick says both weapons need to have it, so dual-wield rogues can go shortsword + scimitar to get the best of both worlds. Which IMO is needed for melee rogues to keep up with ranged rogues using Vex on shortbows or hand crossbows with Steady Aim

Are we actually living in a world where a martial class might use different weapons tactically as the combat situation changes?

I feel faint, I may need to lie down.

 

[Kurotowa]

Which IMO is needed for melee rogues to keep up with ranged rogues using Vex on shortbows or hand crossbows with Steady Aim

Point of order, Rogues no longer have proficiency with hand crossbows, at least in this latest release.

The 2014 Rogue had weapon proficiency in simple weapons and a short whitelist of martial weapons. The UA 6 Rogue has weapon proficiency with simple weapons and martial weapons that have Finesse. Or in other words, they lose proficiency with longswords and hand crossbows, but gain it with scimitars and whips.

Which, on the whole, is probably a good trade. Longsword proficiency was useless and hand crossbows were pretty niche. Meanwhile scimitars have a useful Mastery trait and whips open up some nice possibilities.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Point of order, Rogues no longer have proficiency with hand crossbows, at least in this latest release.

The 2014 Rogue had weapon proficiency in simple weapons and a short whitelist of martial weapons. The UA 6 Rogue has weapon proficiency with simple weapons and martial weapons that have Finesse. Or in other words, they lose proficiency with longswords and hand crossbows, but gain it with scimitars and whips.

Which, on the whole, is probably a good trade. Longsword proficiency was useless and hand crossbows were pretty niche. Meanwhile scimitars have a useful Mastery trait and whips open up some nice possibilities.

You KNOW that the hand crossbow is an oversight and it'll be back by/before publication.

My thoughts:

I love this rogue, and rogue is my favorite class. There will probably need to be a pass for balance (I hope it doesn't get totally nerfed) but I'd be very surprised if this rogue doesn't go forward with nearly all of this intact (just a tweak here and there).

 

[Charlaquin]

Point of order, Rogues no longer have proficiency with hand crossbows, at least in this latest release.

The 2014 Rogue had weapon proficiency in simple weapons and a short whitelist of martial weapons. The UA 6 Rogue has weapon proficiency with simple weapons and martial weapons that have Finesse. Or in other words, they lose proficiency with longswords and hand crossbows, but gain it with scimitars and whips.

Which, on the whole, is probably a good trade. Longsword proficiency was useless and hand crossbows were pretty niche. Meanwhile scimitars have a useful Mastery trait and whips open up some nice possibilities.

I disagree that hand crossbows were niche, they were the go-to weapon for ranged rogues unless you were playing without feats (or with crossbow expert banned).

 

[Kurotowa]

I disagree that hand crossbows were niche, they were the go-to weapon for ranged rogues unless you were playing without feats (or with crossbow expert banned).

If you say so. My main interaction with them was endlessly repeating questions online about how the rules around them actually worked. Partly because they were legitimately confusing, partly because people kept wanting to treat them like handguns and do things like emulate double pistol style with them. (Not helped by some video games like Diablo 3 doing exactly that.)

 

[mellored]

If you say so. My main interaction with them was endlessly repeating questions online about how the rules around them actually worked. Partly because they were legitimately confusing, partly because people kept wanting to treat them like handguns and do things like emulate double pistol style with them. (Not helped by some video games like Diablo 3 doing exactly that.)

Dual wielding hand bows is a cool image and should be supported.