D&D (2024) Playtest 6: Rogue and Cunning Strike

[Stalker0]

The rapier not being a light weapon hurts the option here. A short sword main weapon attack with a dagger off hand attack would allow for vex with the main hand and then by making the off hand attack with the dagger using nick after it would qualify as the next attack roll before the end of the rogue's next turn. This leaves the bonus action available for cunning action while increasing the chances for landing sneak attack (edit: without needing typical criteria for that sneak attack).

Use the scimitar rather than the dagger for a little extra damage with that nick

 

[Pauln6]

The rapier not being a light weapon hurts the option here. A short sword main weapon attack with a dagger off hand attack would allow for vex with the main hand and then by making the off hand attack with the dagger using nick after it would qualify as the next attack roll before the end of the rogue's next turn. This leaves the bonus action available for cunning action while increasing the chances for landing sneak attack (edit: without needing typical criteria for that sneak attack).

There's also something appealing about the visual of a rogue using the main attack to distract an opponent for the dagger as the real attack.



Some of the spells can be used for spells with the ritual tag. Not OP either but still useful.

So they actually made a reason to not use a rapier? Masteries working as intended?

Shortsword and scimitar dual wield sounds sounds like a munchkin combo though. Was there any historical precedent?

 

[mellored]

So they actually made a reason to not use a rapier? Masteries working as intended?

Shortsword and scimitar dual wield sounds sounds like a munchkin combo though. Was there any historical precedent?

There's a fantasy precedent...

 

[Chaosmancer]

The rapier not being a light weapon hurts the option here. A short sword main weapon attack with a dagger off hand attack would allow for vex with the main hand and then by making the off hand attack with the dagger using nick after it would qualify as the next attack roll before the end of the rogue's next turn. This leaves the bonus action available for cunning action while increasing the chances for landing sneak attack (edit: without needing typical criteria for that sneak attack).

There's also something appealing about the visual of a rogue using the main attack to distract an opponent for the dagger as the real attack.

The dual-wielding aspect isn't really a change. The Dual-Wielder feat is needed both for 2024 and 2014. The actual difference is that you can no longer dual-wield rapiers, which you used to be able to do.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Jake Gyllenhaal is fantastic, but why IS he wielding different swords in the poster?

Ah, one is the dagger of time.

 

[Pauln6]

There's a fantasy precedent...

They both look like scimitars to me. Long edges for slashing.

Ah yes, technically a scimitar and a long curved magical dagger. Does that still count as a precedent for scimitar and shortsword? ;-p

 

[Kurotowa]

Shortsword and scimitar dual wield sounds sounds like a munchkin combo though. Was there any historical precedent?

Let's not open the historical precedent can of worms. Do that and you quickly find out that nearly every weapon was specialized in specifically countering the armor of its day, and a third of the armors in the book never existed. To say nothing of dual wielding at all being pretty rare historically.

Rather, let's ask if there's fictional precedent for ways to make it look cool. And in that field, I think it's a bit thin. Most fictional dual wielders either go for a matched pair or a big/little pair. So scimitar and shortsword does come off as a bit of a mechanical incentive over an aesthetic one. How much so may depend on how useful a free off-hand is.

 

[Stalker0]

Let's not open the historical precedent can of worms. Do that and you quickly find out that nearly every weapon was specialized in specifically countering the armor of its day, and a third of the armors in the book never existed. To say nothing of dual wielding at all being pretty rare historically.

Rather, let's ask if there's fictional precedent for ways to make it look cool. And in that field, I think it's a bit thin. Most fictional dual wielders either go for a matched pair or a big/little pair. So scimitar and shortsword does come off as a bit of a mechanical incentive over an aesthetic one. How much so may depend on how useful a free off-hand is.

very well said.

 

[Ashrym]

Use the scimitar rather than the dagger for a little extra damage with that nick

So they actually made a reason to not use a rapier? Masteries working as intended?

Shortsword and scimitar dual wield sounds sounds like a munchkin combo though. Was there any historical precedent?

I was aware of the scimitar as I posted, but the difference in a d6 vs a d4 isn't a big enough difference to me to overcome the option to throw twin daggers too. I like the dagger visual effects in my mind better too. ;-)

The dual-wielding aspect isn't really a change. The Dual-Wielder feat is needed both for 2024 and 2014. The actual difference is that you can no longer dual-wield rapiers, which you used to be able to do.

Dual wielder isn't needed with two light weapons. It's needed to use the rapier as part of the combo. As long as both weapons are light the first attack succeeds with a vex weapon for advantage the second weapon is set up for a sneak attack. The nick property on the second weapon keeps the bonus action available. 2014 dual wielder doesn't keep the bonus action because there's a lack of the nick property.

Dual wielder used to even up an odd stat does make this work with a rapier and scimitar because the scimitar is light. Setting up our own sneak attack through dual wielding like that seems like a nice bonus when we can also keep cunning action, especially since cunning strike relies on that sneak attack condition. It creates an option to sneak attack without having an ally nearby.

That plus something like fast hands (that can now use a magic item in the options) allows me to dual wield effectively on a thief and not give up those bonus action options. Vex attack, nick sneak attack, apply an appropriate cunning strike option, use fast hands as desired.

That particular combo is less useful on a swashbuckler, but it keeps cunning action available for rogue subclasses. The opportunity cost between cunning action and twf is gone using the combo. It looks like a solid upgrade to the class to me unless I'm missing something.

 

[Stalker0]

I was aware of the scimitar as I posted, but the difference in a d6 vs a d4 isn't a big enough difference to me to overcome the option to throw twin daggers too.

I believe you can now draw two weapons to throw them at the same time, so you could always drop your weapons and throw the twin daggers on your belt that one time you needed to.

Aka you give up nothing!