D&D (2024) Playtest 6: Rogue and Cunning Strike

[occam]

Assassinate is now bad, really bad.
at 3rd level you get +3 damage on one attack, in 1st round of combat, only on targets with worse initiative.

Extra sneak attack damage from a crit is about 1.75 points/level. Is 1 point/level less? Yes, BUT... this assassin doesn't need to achieve surprise on the opponent.

Taking your level 3 example, the assassin will score an extra 3 points of damage instead of an (average) 7 points. Giving up 4 points of damage doesn't seem like much when you can do it at the start of every combat, instead of just those encounters where conditions are amenable to gaining surprise. Plus, you could roll an actual crit, and still get the Assassinate bonus damage.

 

[Kurotowa]

Here's a Rogue change I haven't seen much discussion of. Previously, a 20th level Arcane Trickster had 13 known spells from the Wizard spell list, of which 9 were required to be Enchantment or Illusion and 4 could be any school. Now, a 20th level Arcane Trickster has 11 prepared spells from the Arcane spell list, of which zero have school requirements. Oh, you still have to start with 2 from Enchantment or Illusion. But none of the other slots have that requirement, and even those two can be swapped out by as early as 5th level if you really want.

Spell permutations aren't my strong suit, but I'm a little surprised I haven't seen anyone going over what clever new options this opens up.

 

[Mistwell]

Save or suck and save or lose ones are however. Imagine the impact on a game if every single fight with ranged supporting monsters had one using a ranged trip or a ranged disarm every round. Worse it's not just a disarm, it's "one item of your choice that it's holding". Better not get too attached to those magic items or whatever.

What's the point of a ranged disarm? You just pick it back up when your turn comes around. Big whoop. Unless someone else grabs it, in which case it being ranged wasn't the issue was it. Again, Tasha's Hideous Laughter (a meager spell) knocks you both prone and incapacitated until you make a save. This is not that big a deal.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Here's a Rogue change I haven't seen much discussion of. Previously, a 20th level Arcane Trickster had 13 known spells from the Wizard spell list, of which 9 were required to be Enchantment or Illusion and 4 could be any school. Now, a 20th level Arcane Trickster has 11 prepared spells from the Arcane spell list, of which zero have school requirements. Oh, you still have to start with 2 from Enchantment or Illusion. But none of the other slots have that requirement, and even those two can be swapped out by as early as 5th level if you really want.

Spell permutations aren't my strong suit, but I'm a little surprised I haven't seen anyone going over what clever new options this opens up.

Well... is there anything the Rogue could do that would be better for them than it was for the wizard? That is basically the question. Otherwise, they are just 1/3 wizard.

 

[mellored]

Well... is there anything the Rogue could do that would be better for them than it was for the wizard? That is basically the question. Otherwise, they are just 1/3 wizard.

Cast Shadowblade

 

[Kurotowa]

Well... is there anything the Rogue could do that would be better for them than it was for the wizard? That is basically the question. Otherwise, they are just 1/3 wizard.

I suppose that's a good point. Since you can't Sneak Attack with spells, the low spell progression means damage spells aren't competitive. And a lot of the nasty debuff type spells were already Enchantments or Illusions. So I suppose we'd be talking about Self spells, or maybe utility effects if there's no primary Arcane caster in the party.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Cast Shadowblade

Was already an illusion spell, so Arcane Tricksters were already using it. @Kurotowa was wondering about new combos or ideas that opened up alongside the spell list.

 

[Kurotowa]

It might be that even with the full Arcane spell list at their disposal, Arcane Tricksters are the reverse of Bladesingers. None of their potential combat spells are powerful enough to overshadow Sneak Attack. And while if you were writing a story about a solo protagonist, it'd be cool to have a Rogue with Identify and Mage Armor and Unseen Servant, the dynamics of a party of PCs are very different.

There's spells that's it's good if someone has them, like Detect Thoughts and Knock. But they're not really better if the Rogue has them than any other primary Arcane caster in the party. Which you know, fair enough, good game balance, nothing broken here.

 

[mellored]

Was already an illusion spell, so Arcane Tricksters were already using it. @Kurotowa was wondering about new combos or ideas that opened up alongside the spell list.

Gift of gab can be pretty nice when you flub an expert persuasion check.

Unseen servant seems pretty good too for infiltration.

But nothing that would be overpowered.

 

[Ashrym]

One negative I see? Vex is rarely useful for a rogue who can be hidden or sniping near constantly. A rogue Swashbuckler is about the only one who will be interested in the rapier for Vex.

The rapier not being a light weapon hurts the option here. A short sword main weapon attack with a dagger off hand attack would allow for vex with the main hand and then by making the off hand attack with the dagger using nick after it would qualify as the next attack roll before the end of the rogue's next turn. This leaves the bonus action available for cunning action while increasing the chances for landing sneak attack (edit: without needing typical criteria for that sneak attack).

There's also something appealing about the visual of a rogue using the main attack to distract an opponent for the dagger as the real attack.

I suppose that's a good point. Since you can't Sneak Attack with spells, the low spell progression means damage spells aren't competitive. And a lot of the nasty debuff type spells were already Enchantments or Illusions. So I suppose we'd be talking about Self spells, or maybe utility effects if there's no primary Arcane caster in the party.

Some of the spells can be used for spells with the ritual tag. Not OP either but still useful.