D&D (2024) Playtest 6: Rogue and Cunning Strike

[Kobold Stew]

There's a lot of changes to the Rogue, and it feels good.

• Weapon mastery at level 1.
• Steady Aim added at 3 (from Tasha's -- nice to have it mainstreamed this way.)
• Reliable Talent at level 7 is huge -- So pleased for this. Combine that with Barbarian 2's Primal Knowledge, though, and whew! A Strength Rogue becomes amazing.
• Arcane Trickster will still be hurting for spells, but with no school restrictions, builds can be more interesting. THis also telegraphys what they'll do with Eldritch Knight, which is also good.
• For Thief, the clarification for using Dex to Jump is needed.

The Biggest change is the addition at level 5 of Cunning Strike, where you can "spend" sneak attack dice to get bonus effects. It's a fun choice that will be interesting each time.
Level 5 options:

• Disarm. Good, but we need explicit permission to pick up the same object in that turn (with a reaction or for free) or else it's worthless.
• Poison. I like this "basic" poison. You don't need proficiency with a poisoner's kit (fine), but surely "somewhere on your person" is too vague. What if it's in a backpack? A bag of holding? you have two light weapons in your hands? There has to be some coherent story that can emerge.
• Trip and Withdraw are both solid tactical options.

Level 13-14 options:

• Daze (2 dice) and Knock Out (6 dice) are both excellent, fun options, both targeting Constitution saves. Since you can only get one effect in any case, I'm not sure why you would choose Daze over Knock Out, though -EDIT: even though you could double up effects.
• Obscure (3 dice) to blind someone is reasonable.
• Swashbuckler gets two options at level 13: Invigorate (give someone +1d6 to attack rolls for a turn) and Parrying Stance (+1d6 AC for a turn), but both of these come too late. Parrying Stance would be good when fighting gangs for charity.

Playing a Rogue is now more fun, and has more tactical options round-by-round. That's great.

 

[darjr]

 

[Charlaquin]

• Disarm. Good, but we need explicit permission to pick up the same object in that turn (with a reaction or for free) or else it's worthless.

I mean, absolute worst case scenario, thief rogues can Use an Object as a bonus action again, so at least they have an ironclad argument for being able to do this.

• Poison. I like this "basic" poison. You don't need proficiency with a poisoner's kit (fine), but surely "somewhere on your person" is too vague. What if it's in a backpack? A bag of holding? you have two light weapons in your hands? There has to be some coherent story that can emerge.

I get what you mean, but requiring a free hand to make use of this would make it a pretty bad option, unless it also added damage. Or at the very least, change the damage type to poison.

• Trip and Withdraw are both solid tactical options.

Between this and Cunning Action, rogues are going to be super hard to pin down, which is great. Only thing I don’t like is that Withdraw is pretty useless for Swashbucklers.

Level 13-14 options:

• Daze (2 dice) and Knock Out (6 dice) are both excellent, fun options, both targeting Constitution saves. Since you can only get one effect in any case, I'm not sure why you would choose Daze over Knock Out, though.

Well, Daze costs fewer dice, so you’d pick it if you want to debilitate your target but still deal a good amount of damage. Also, Improved Cunning Strike at 11th level allows you to use up to two Cunning Strike options, and Devious Strike says it adds these options to Cunning Strike. So, yeah, starting at 16th level, you would have enough dice to Knock Out and Stun on the same sneak attack, if you want to trade in all your sneak attack damage to do that.

• Obscure (3 dice) to blind someone is reasonable.

Yeah, seems solid.

 

[Charlaquin]

Stealth still seems to turn you literally invisible, which while a big buff to rogues, is incredibly stupid IMO.

 

[Kobold Stew]

I mean, absolute worst case scenario, thief rogues can Use an Object as a bonus action again, so at least they have an ironclad argument for being able to do this.

It's just soething that's messy in the 2014 PHB I want them to clean up.

I get what you mean, but requiring a free hand to make use of this would make it a pretty bad option, unless it also added damage. Or at the very least, change the damage type to poison.

Yes.It's a good idea, but I want the story not to be silly. I can buy a poisoned rag hanging from your belt -- that's fine. But "somewhere on your person" just feels weak, like there's an outcome (mechanics) are governing the story being told.

Between this and Cunning Action, rogues are going to be super hard to pin down, which is great. Only thing I don’t like is that Withdraw is pretty useless for Swashbucklers.

I don't mind it when they have a better option available.

Well, Daze costs fewer dice, so you’d pick it if you want to debilitate your target but still deal a good amount of damage. Also, Improved Cunning Strike at 11th level allows you to use up to two Cunning Strike options, and Devious Strike says it adds these options to Cunning Strike. So, yeah, starting at 16th level, you would have enough dice to Knock Out and Stun on the same sneak attack, if you want to trade in all your sneak attack damage to do that.

Of course. Thanks. (Post above edited as a result.)

 

[mellored]

surely "somewhere on your person" is too vague. What if it's in a backpack? A bag of holding? you have two light weapons in your hands? There has to be some coherent story that can emerge.

You're a rogue.
You don't go around telling people where you hit stuff.

I'm not sure why you would choose Daze over Knock Out, though.

daze deals 4d6 more damage.

 

[Kobold Stew]

daze deals 4d6 more damage.

...and leaves the enemy able to attack this round. If HP are hidden (w/ or w/out a houseruled "bloodied" condition) I still know that I'd likely take the damage or unconsciousness w/advantage.

 

[mellored]

...and leaves the enemy able to attack this round. If HP are hidden (w/ or w/out a houseruled "bloodied" condition) I still know that I'd likely take the damage or unconsciousness w/advantage.

You're not being cunning enough...

Daze and dash. (Disengage not needed).

 

[Charlaquin]

Some other things of note:

• Assassins can apply an ongoing 2d6 poison damage with the poison cunning action starting at 13th level, and the damage ignores resistance to poison damage. Nice.

• Assassin’s extra damage features no longer rely on the target being surprised, so hooray, they’re not useless any more!

• Thieves get an option to spend a die to stay hidden after a sneak attack, as long as they end their turn in cover. I love this, but I think it should be available to all rogues at 5th instead of only thieves at 9th. Even if it would have to cost more SA dice to balance it at that level.

• Arcane Tricksters can Disarm and Trip with their mage hand starting at 13th level. That’s awesome, but comes kind of late.

• Spell Thief only lets you keep the stolen spell for 8 hours

• 20th level feature lets you turn a failure on a d20 test into a natural 20, and recovers on a short rest! I mean, I know most games never go that high, but even just in theory that’s an awesome capstone!

 

[Charlaquin]

Since you can use two cunning strike options starting at 11th, what are some potent combinations?

Daze, Withdraw, and Knock Out are all good options to pair with Sneak Strike so you can get back to cover without provoking an opportunity attack, and still have your bonus action available to dash. Similarly, they’d go well with disarm to allow you to play keep-away with your enemy’s weapon.

Trip and Daze seems pretty potent, since standing up from prone would prevent the dazed target from attacking you back.