D&D General Lethality, AD&D, and 5e: Looking Back at the Deadliest Edition

[Mannahnin]

Yeah, but that wasn't the routine cause of death anyway; it was simple damage or save-or-die effects of one stripe or another. Gotcha monsters were more things like rust monsters or level drainers (and the latter were even worse than I remembered, because somehow all the local groups got it in their head they had a saving throw).

A magic item which can be acquired from Lawful churches in my world is a phylactery or talisman which grants a saving throw against energy drain.

In my current campaign my fairly high-level players (7-8th) found a Scarab of Protection which has a finite number of charges, each negating a nasty effect from an undead (including energy drain). They were psyched to put it on their front line fighter.

 

[Willie the Duck]

Of course, there also weren't all the trap/"gotcha" monsters from AD&D yet in OD&D. No earseekers or rot grubs, for example.

Yeah, but that wasn't the routine cause of death anyway; it was simple damage or save-or-die effects of one stripe or another. Gotcha monsters were more things like rust monsters or level drainers (and the latter were even worse than I remembered, because somehow all the local groups got it in their head they had a saving throw).

I think gotchas (the most prevalent of which in my experience were simple traps) were a routine cause of death. Or at least some of the most remembered because each time you fell to one you kicked yourself for not foreseeing it (or kvetched that the warning signs the DM thought were obvious were not). Simple damage took people out at a very variable rate. I think when we played Shieldwalls and Chokepoints (perhaps somewhat close to what Gary intended) -- with hirelings and retainers and the fighters rotating out of the front line as their hp approached 0 and retreating-when-necessary under a hail of dropped coin, food, and burning oil -- we did pretty well at surviving (if not always thriving) against opponents with hp-depleting effects. Monsters with SOD effects (or level drain), on the other hand, man! Those were often a 'learn there's an enemy down here with this ability by someone's character dying to it' situation. I recall* hearing that saving throws were intended as the last line of defense and that the real first defense was supposed to be clues which let you avoid them in the first place. However, excepting rattlesnakes or hyper-realistic statues in a medusa lair, I don't remember a lot of that happening in our games.
*either from Peterson, one of Snarf's analysis of Peterson, or one of my convos with one of the there-in-person folks like Mornard or Chirine.

Yeah. Some were less accessible (because of the steep level curve) but most of the big plot breakers were present in OD&D, at least by the time of the Greyhawk supplement.

Agreed, D&D wenthas had the ability to go off the rails either from the jump or the jump plus one year (oD&D doesn't have all the worst spells, but also fewer of the counters, so it is something of a wash). Open-ended spells like Transmute Rock<-->Mud, Control Weather, Wish (with no downside but 2d4 days downtime); magic items like Spheres of Annihilation or Deck of Many Things; artifacts (okay, so there from the jump plus two years for Eldritch Wizardry) -- all had the ability to totally disrupt the game and have been there for approaching 50 years.

Or heck, to bring this back to the stuff Necrofumbler was primarily focusing on (early magic obviating large parts of the noncombat pillars): for all the talk about the early game being about careful weighing of food/water/torches encumbrance versus having encumbrance space to pull as much gp (=xp) out of the dungeon, bags of holding existed from the beginning and seemed to appear wildly more frequently than their actual chart likelihood would indicate. Necrofumbler is not wrong that D&D 5e does a good job of turning off modes of gameplay, but only that this is a new development.

Re: darts -- somewhere along the line, we heard that darts weren't pub darts, but some kind of war-darts. I think we interpreted that as short javelins, moreso than jarts/plumbata. I remember them existing more in 2e rate-of-fire specialist fighter theory-craft than on our AD&D magic users. I think mostly we realized that dagger = melee and ranged. Also that staying behind shield walls and lobbing oil and the like is really safe.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I recall* hearing that saving throws were intended as the last line of defense and that the real first defense was supposed to be clues which let you avoid them in the first place.
*either from Peterson, one of Snarf's analysis of Peterson, or one of my convos with one of the there-in-person folks like Mornard or Chirine.

D&D 5E - A Brief History of Saving Throws, the Original Plot Armor

There has been a recent thread discussing the original (1e, OD&D) saving throws, and I thought it would be helpful to examine the ways in which saving throws (and the conception of saving throws) have changed over time. As a general concept, I would say that the original conception of saving...

www.enworld.org

 

[Lanefan]

As opposed to the objects we had continual flame cast on in older editions?

That Light is a cantrip now, and thus castable at will, removes light management even from the very low levels; where Continual Light didn't kick in until 3rd or 5th character level depending what type of caster you had.

Also give enemies plenty of time to set up ambushes, doesn't have a floor, doesn't make you invisible. I do add a house rule that you can't attack anything outside the hut from inside because it's a bit OP. But with the limitation that the caster has to stay inside the hut

Even in 1e Leo's Hut is a bit of a headache; I can't imagine trying to DM the juiced-up 5e version.

Create water debuted in Men & Magic. Doesn't get much more old school than that.

Indeed, but keep in mind that in 1e these spells had to be pre-memorized and slots were more limited: you could only use a slot of that spells' level to memorize/cast that spell. Ritual casting in 5e removes these restrictions.

Another spell that has been around for a long time. It also doesn't have to answer if, for example, it recognizes you as an enemy. The person that just killed them? Likely considered an enemy.

Is that a 5e thing, that the target doesn't have to answer? We always read the 1e version as compelling the target to answer no matter what, though the answer had to be short.

At a higher level, sure. The DM needs to adjust. As far as teleport, hope you don't roll bad.

Rolling bad on a 5e Teleport puts you a bit off course. Rolling bad on a 1e Teleport could kill you instantly when you appeared - or tried to - in solid rock below the surface. There's a big difference.

Also, 1e Teleport is much more limited in what you can take with you. With 5e Teleport you can easily take a whole (typical) party along.

Knock makes a sound that can be heard up to 300 feet away. Invisibility just gives you advantage on stealth it doesn't make you undetectable. It's also another spell that has been around since Men & Magic. Not sure how much more old school you can get.

Truth be told, though I'm not a fan of Knock I'm also not a fan of what 5e has done to it. What I'd rather see (and might implement if-whenever I start a new campaign and thus can rejig spells again) is that it not necessarily be automatic that it works; that whatever is being opened would in effect get some sort of save.

As for Invisibility, that's a spell I don't mind being a bit OP for its level simply for the cool factor, and that it only gives advantage on stealth in 5e is more than a bit underwhelming.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Same here - when I hear "darts" I think of weaponized pub darts.

Until I stumbled across a reference to the Roman fighting darts, I always wondered what the hell that was about. The fact they're basically stubby javelins would never have occurred to me. At most I'd have thought of are sometimes called "dart shuriken" (i.e. small throwing weapons designed to be tossed as a set).

 

[Willie the Duck]

That Light is a cantrip now, and thus castable at will, removes light management even from the very low levels; where Continual Light didn't kick in until 3rd or 5th character level depending what type of caster you had. ...Indeed, but keep in mind that in 1e these spells had to be pre-memorized and slots were more limited: you could only use a slot of that spells' level to memorize/cast that spell. Ritual casting in 5e removes these restrictions.

There is no doubt that 5e made this process even more convenient. I think the point was that they were there at all. The game saw this play loop and said, 'and since a swath of you will find this unpleasing, here's a convenient workaround.'

Even in 1e Leo's Hut is a bit of a headache; I can't imagine trying to DM the juiced-up 5e version.

It usually ends in some kind of armistice, as the easiest DM counters* (huge ambush party waiting for you behind full cover, enemies pile rocks on top so you all die when spell ends) tend to lead towards TPKs.
*barring a counter-mage in every opposing group

 

[Mannahnin]

That Light is a cantrip now, and thus castable at will, removes light management even from the very low levels; where Continual Light didn't kick in until 3rd or 5th character level depending what type of caster you had.

You almost always had a Cleric. And 3rd level is right around where "real" adventuring starts in old editions. Before that characters are pretty fragile and disposable.

Is that a 5e thing, that the target doesn't have to answer? We always read the 1e version as compelling the target to answer no matter what, though the answer had to be short.

Speak with Dead they speak, but can recognize you as hostile and will normally give short, evasive, or cryptic answers. It's pretty close to the write-up in older editions. It gives good elbow room for the DM to give useful information but not give the whole plot away or whatever.

Rolling bad on a 5e Teleport puts you a bit off course. Rolling bad on a 1e Teleport could kill you instantly when you appeared - or tried to - in solid rock below the surface. There's a big difference.

I always wondered how much people fudged those Teleport chances. They're definitely a discouragement to regular use of the spell.

 

[Voadam]

I had no problem thinking of dart board darts as weapons, particularly as something a magic-user might pick up. We had a set when I was growing up and they always seemed dangerous with younger siblings around. I do have a thing about needles though.

Lawn darts seemed like a real weapon (we had a set too), but not something I would expect to see at three times the rate of fire of javelins, half the weight of a dagger/one quarter the weight of a javelin, or something that would thematically be magic-user appropriate.

 

[Nikosandros]

My experience was almost the same. We did occasionally pick darts just to switch things up a bit, but 19 times out of 20 it was staff or dagger.

Ditto and for the exact same reasons that Snarf outlined, especially the fact that we considered darts silly. I rember one high-level fighter with exceptional strength built ad-hoc as a dart specialist, but the idea was to make sort of an effective joke character.

 

[Clint_L]

Doubt it about the pendulum swing. If anything, the game is moving to an even greater level of "epic unkillable superheroes" play style.

My main beef with 5E is that there are way too many "story tropes" that get utterly broken by commonly available very low level spells. The game is HEAVILY geared towards a "Let's sweep all that Social and Exploration pillar stuff under the rug so that we can get to the next fight ASAP" type of playstyle.

Any "Gritty Survival" style campaign simply gets kicked in the balls, hard. Infinite Light Cantrips = No more light management required.
Tiny Hut = no more finding a good campaign site required.
Create Food & Water = No more hunting forgaging or fishing required, and deserts stop being any threat.
Mending = no more dealing with broken gear required.
Speak with dead = No more need to capture an enemy then interrogate him through good roleplaying, just kill him then "read its memories like an open book".
Actually needing to Travel somewhere? Nah. Overland Flight the party, Summon a few Pegasi, or outright Teleport.
Crafting stuff and needing to find, and roleplay with, a master NPC artisan? then waiting weeks and also payng him for his work? Nah that's stupid just Fabricate it in 1 round, for FREE. Basically making the wizzy the best uber artisan in the entire world, for all crafts, instantly.

Okay, there is some validity to your overall point that the game has trended to be less lethal - that's what the whole thread is about, and there isn't a lot of disagreement with the general premise. However, most of us are old and we were there for AD&D (some of us are still there for it), and we know that not every campaign was grim and gritty. Conversely, it is absolutely possible to run a grim and gritty campaign through 5e; we know, because people do it. So we are talking trends, not absolutes.

Also, your examples are exaggerated. First, not every party has access to every spell and ability, in either 1e or 5e, so just because something potentially exists means everyone has it or will use it. My current party doesn't have tiny hut (which also existed in a weaker but still useful form in 1e), create food and water (which also existed in 1e, and at the same spell level), speak with dead, or any form of fast transit.

Light management was not really an issue when we played 1e, either; everyone carried a bullseye lantern at first level, and soon as you could cast continual light you just put it on a bunch of small objects before you went adventuring and used them as needed.

Speak with dead certainly does not let you read the subject's "memories like an open book;" when you put that in quotations I was confused because that language is nowhere in the spell, which actually states the opposite: "answers are usually brief, cryptic, or repetitive, and the corpse is under no compulsion to offer a truthful answer if you are hostile to it or it recognizes you as an enemy."

No players have ever summoned Pegasi for travel in my 40+ years of playing this game. Teleportation is a thing at high levels in 5e but inherently risky unless using a circle, which are rare, and so on. I'm not even sure what your last example is referring to; master artisans remain a thing in my campaign and most.

I'm just saying, maybe ease up on the hyperbole.

Also, I have found that 5e is much more focused on roleplaying than on combat (4e would be your most combat-oriented edition, IMO). This may be less about the rules than the culture, though, as the rise of actual play shows has effectively acculturated a mass audience towards heavy RP.