D&D General Lethality, AD&D, and 5e: Looking Back at the Deadliest Edition

[Sacrosanct]

Did the "reaction rolls" let the characters alter reality and do whatever they wanted? If not, you might have the wrong rules....

5e doesn't do that either. Look, I'm a fan of 1e, but let's be honest here. Not only did those rules exist, but they were a lot more clunky than 5e. % based mechanics are typically not as intuitive as a d20 vs a DC value. You had to roll your %, then adjust your CHA modifier to that roll, then look it up on a chart.

 

[nevin]

the old 1e reaction tables were only for NPc's or monsters. you rolled after pc's initiated contact to see what the monster's or npc's reaction was going to be. you didn't roll before roleplay started. You rolled after and chr, circumstances and similarity in alignment all were supposed to affect the role if they came into play.

 

[Sacrosanct]

the old 1e reaction tables were only for NPc's or monsters. you rolled after pc's initiated contact to see what the monster's or npc's reaction was going to be. you didn't roll before roleplay started. You rolled after and chr, circumstances and similarity in alignment all were supposed to affect the role if they came into play.

In B/X, the reaction is done before the PCs can react.

Either way, the point stands. "Back in the day" absolutely did have rules for interactions and "persuasion" checks. It's not a new thing. And no edition allows PCs to "override reality and let the PC do whatever they want" by an ability check.

 

[Hussar]

He should have called them Jarts in the Players Handbook. Gen X kids would have immediately recognized the weaponized connection then.

What’s a Jart?

We always saw darts as like lawn darts. Or ninja stars once Oriental adventures came out.

Our logic was that is your mu was in melee combat, he was screwed anyway so may as well use darts.

Otoh, by third or fourth level you typically had a wand or two with fifty or more charges each. That weapon listing on the mu’s sheet got referenced about as often as boots high/hard.

 

[billd91]

What’s a Jart?

We always saw darts as like lawn darts. Or ninja stars once Oriental adventures came out.

Oh, they were lawn darts, alright. Very nasty ones.

 

[Oofta]

Oh, they were lawn darts, alright. Very nasty ones.
View attachment 290409

Yup. We had a set, it's basically what we envisioned as darts in 1E.

 

[Voadam]

In B/X, the reaction is done before the PCs can react.

View attachment 290407

Either way, the point stands. "Back in the day" absolutely did have rules for interactions and "persuasion" checks. It's not a new thing. And no edition allows PCs to "override reality and let the PC do whatever they want" by an ability check.

I don't see that B/X system as a general persuasion check, the part you are referring to is to set a starting attitude for monsters randomly encountered that the DM does not want to figure out themself based on context. The DM is left to take it from there.

B24:

MONSTER ACTIONS: Some monsters always act in the same way (such as zombies, who always attack). However, the reactions of most monsters are not always the same. The DM can always choose the monster's reactions to fit the dungeon, but if he decides not to do this, a DM may use the reaction table below to determine the monster's reactions (roll 2d6).

Monster Reactions

Dice Roll
2
3-5
6-8
9-11
12

Reaction
Immediate Attack
Hostile, possible attack
Uncertain, monster confused
No attack, monster leaves or considers offers
Enthusiastic friendship

This monster reaction was adjusted by Charisma modifiers but it only set the starting point for the monster, not whether the party can mechanically then persuade anyone to do anything.

It was also not spelled out how to apply charisma modifiers upon first meeting a group of creatures, as the party can have members with different modifiers. Depending on context it might make sense for there to be a face point man or for everybody's modifiers to be applied.

The closest to persuasion is a specific system for the specific situation of whether a prospective retainer accepts an offer of employment from a PC where a charisma modifier (along with a few other consideration) can modify the 50/50 chance of acceptance or rejection on a 2d6 chart.

REACTIONS: Once a rate of pay is offered the DM must roll 2d6 and consult the Retainer Reaction table to see if the offer is accepted, refused, or if more negotiation is necessary. The DM may want to adjust the reaction roll by + 1 or +2 for very good offers or by -1 or -2 for poor offers or if the PC has a bad reputation.
Retainer Reactions
Dice Roll
2
3-5
6-8
9-11
12
Reaction
Offer refused;-1R*
Offer refused
Roll again
Offer accepted
Offer accepted; +1MT!
*The DM should roll for each retainer found. If a 2 is rolled, reactions to that character of other retainers in the same area will be adjusted by -1. If the character attempts to hire retainers in some other town, reactions will be determined normally.
!The retainer is so friendly that his or her normal morale (an optional rule; see page B27) will be adjusted by + 1.

The only other reaction mechanics are for whether a monster will pursue a party.

EVASION: Sometimes one side wishes to evade (avoid) an encounter. If the evading side has a faster movement rate than the other and combat has not yet begun, evasion is automatic as long as the evading side is not forced to stop. If monsters wish to evade and are slower, the characters must decide among themselves whether or not to chase them. If characters wish to evade and are slower than the monsters, the DM must decide what the monsters will do. Use the Monster Reactions table to find the actions of the monsters. A low score means that the monsters will pursue, and a high score means that the monsters will let the party escape.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I don't see that B/X system as a general persuasion check, the part you are referring to is to set a starting attitude for monsters randomly encountered that the DM does not want to figure out themself based on context. The DM is left to take it from there.

B24:

MONSTER ACTIONS: Some monsters always act in the same way (such as zombies, who always attack). However, the reactions of most monsters are not always the same. The DM can always choose the monster's reactions to fit the dungeon, but if he decides not to do this, a DM may use the reaction table below to determine the monster's reactions (roll 2d6).

Monster Reactions

Dice Roll
2
3-5
6-8
9-11
12

Reaction
Immediate Attack
Hostile, possible attack
Uncertain, monster confused
No attack, monster leaves or considers offers
Enthusiastic friendship

This monster reaction was adjusted by Charisma modifiers but it only set the starting point for the monster, not whether the party can mechanically then persuade anyone to do anything.

It was also not spelled out how to apply charisma modifiers upon first meeting a group of creatures, as the party can have members with different modifiers. Depending on context it might make sense for there to be a face point man or for everybody's modifiers to be applied.

The closest to persuasion is a specific system for the specific situation of whether a prospective retainer accepts an offer of employment from a PC where a charisma modifier (along with a few other consideration) can modify the 50/50 chance of acceptance or rejection on a 2d6 chart.

REACTIONS: Once a rate of pay is offered the DM must roll 2d6 and consult the Retainer Reaction table to see if the offer is accepted, refused, or if more negotiation is necessary. The DM may want to adjust the reaction roll by + 1 or +2 for very good offers or by -1 or -2 for poor offers or if the PC has a bad reputation.
Retainer Reactions
Dice Roll
2
3-5
6-8
9-11
12
Reaction
Offer refused;-1R*
Offer refused
Roll again
Offer accepted
Offer accepted; +1MT!
*The DM should roll for each retainer found. If a 2 is rolled, reactions to that character of other retainers in the same area will be adjusted by -1. If the character attempts to hire retainers in some other town, reactions will be determined normally.
!The retainer is so friendly that his or her normal morale (an optional rule; see page B27) will be adjusted by + 1.

The only other reaction mechanics are for whether a monster will pursue a party.

EVASION: Sometimes one side wishes to evade (avoid) an encounter. If the evading side has a faster movement rate than the other and combat has not yet begun, evasion is automatic as long as the evading side is not forced to stop. If monsters wish to evade and are slower, the characters must decide among themselves whether or not to chase them. If characters wish to evade and are slower than the monsters, the DM must decide what the monsters will do. Use the Monster Reactions table to find the actions of the monsters. A low score means that the monsters will pursue, and a high score means that the monsters will let the party escape.

The point is that they said everything was role-played back then, and there were no rules for things like that. Obviously that's not true. There were rules back then too. Arguing the pedantics of them doesn't change that fact.

 

[jasper]

.......

Also, I have found that 5e is much more focused on roleplaying than on combat (4e would be your most combat-oriented edition, IMO). This may be less about the rules than the culture, though, as the rise of actual play shows has effectively acculturated a mass audience towards heavy RP.

Clint has an excellent point. Look at the few adventure paths of 1E Temple of Elemental evil. G1 to G3. And compare those to the current adventure paths. Especially Witchlight. And yes the combat rules do take up a huge bunch of restate in books.

 

[ECMO3]

Even in 1e Leo's Hut is a bit of a headache; I can't imagine trying to DM the juiced-up 5e version.

Dispel Magic works on it .... and it eventually expires.

In a high level campaign I was playing recently, we were going overland through an undead infested area and wanted to rest. Cast LTH and after an hour a Lich with an army of Wraiths shows up and dispels the Hut.