D&D (2024) Class spell lists and pact magic are back!

[Mistwell]

60% vs 80% means a minority literally killed it.

No, it doesn't. You're not making sense. That's like saying 60% vs 100% a minority killed it, when literally all 60% also vote for the one that got 100%. Nobody is "killing" anything. The same people who liked the version with the lower percentage ALSO liked the one that got the higher percentage. You're acting like if they liked both versions it somehow only counts for the one with the lower percentage! It's complete nonsense. You don't subtract the lower number from the higher number.

 

[Mistwell]

I did not talk about classes being dropped, I talked about things they proposed in the playtest

They have not dropped wildshape as a thing either. They're just testing different versions of these things.

. Of course they do not throw out classes altogether…

I have not seen any results for the current test with animals. I do not even care whether they perform better than pretty awful templates. The point was that they should have iterated on templates, and if that does not get you over the finish line, try animals instead. Heck, try both at the same time for different subclasses, or call them Druid 1 vs Druid 2. I would expect the testers to not get confused by that.

There isn't time to spend on concepts which are obviously not supported enough. And I say that as someone who liked templates. We can't just tweak stuff forever on each try when another version of wildshape gets big support right away. You go with the one getting the big support.

How many people voted a 3 because they liked templates but thought these ones needed work?

They know the answer to that from the comments. They've reported that sort of stuff in reviewing feedback. Obviously it wasn't a meaningful number. People really liked the actual animal versions better it seems.

We will never know,

But they know.

 

[mamba]

No, it doesn't. You're not making sense. That's like saying 60% vs 100% a minority killed it, when literally all 60% also vote for the one that got 100%. Nobody is "killing" anything. The same people who liked the version with the lower percentage ALSO liked the one that got the higher percentage. You're acting like if they liked both versions it somehow only counts for the one with the lower percentage! It's complete nonsense. You don't subtract the lower number from the higher number.

well, they got kicked, so you won’t get a reply…

The way I understand it is that if 60% fails, then 40% killed it. 40% is a minority.

 

[Maxperson]

The problem is that it makes design logic "lol idk". It's why the monster math is so different from the MM and the DMG guidelines, or why there are clearly best in slot spells. I don't want a perfectly balanced system like 4e, but I want all the damn smite abilities to work the same.

I can respect your feeling here, but I just don't share it. I think there are sizable numbers on both sides of this issue and to me every move towards standardization makes the game a bit less enjoyable.

 

[tetrasodium]

The problem is that it makes design logic "lol idk". It's why the monster math is so different from the MM and the DMG guidelines, or why there are clearly best in slot spells. I don't want a perfectly balanced system like 4e, but I want all the damn smite abilities to work the same.

A lot of the time elements like ASF ACP SR:yes/no& bonus types were used to make tiny distinctions between roughly equal best in class & slightly lagging options have a completely different value depending on who was considering it & what situation they were in.

5e still seems to be going with one size fits all for all things & there's no room for much in the way of nuance, but for whatever wotc keeps shooting for it like this time with the smites/templates will make it work without expanding the design space.

 

[mamba]

They have not dropped wildshape as a thing either. They're just testing different versions of these things.

templates, I am clearly talking about templates…

There isn't time to spend on concepts which are obviously not supported enough.

I question whether this was obvious in the first place

They know the answer to that from the comments.

so 5% comment and that outweighs the 95% who voted without one. Sounds like a broken approach to me

But they know.

I don’t think so, that is the point

If I trusted their approach, I’d agree, but to me that is so flawed as to be close to useless. It can detect when something is the favorite by a giant margin, anything more nuanced than that and you might as well toss a coin

 

[Maxperson]

so 5% comment and that outweighs the 95% who voted without one. Sounds like a broken approach to me

This is a very, very important point. Humans are humans, and being human we like to complain loudly to everyone who wants to hear it, and also to the other 99% who don't. When we are happy, though, we rarely go out of our way to make sure everyone knows it.

"The squeaky wheel gets the grease" and happy people don't squeak.

 

[Mistwell]

well, they got kicked, so you won’t get a reply…

The way I understand it is that if 60% fails, then 40% killed it. 40% is a minority.

If I like Version A and I like Version B, my vote for each is valid. It's not valid for only one but not the other. They're equally valid votes.

So if Version A gets 60% and version B gets 100%, it's not that 40% killed version A. In that scenario, everyone who liked Version A also liked Version B and their votes for Version B are not worth zero while their votes for version A are worth a full vote. In that scenario it's 100% that killed version A, not 40%. You don't subtract the lower number from the higher number - that's like saying the people who liked both don't count for the higher number. They count exactly as much as they counted for the lower number.

 

[Mistwell]

templates, I am clearly talking about templates…


I question whether this was obvious in the first place


so 5% comment and that outweighs the 95% who voted without one. Sounds like a broken approach to me


I don’t think so, that is the point

If I trusted their approach, I’d agree, but to me that is so flawed as to be close to useless. It can detect when something is the favorite by a giant margin, anything more nuanced than that and you might as well toss a coin

They did TWO videos on this concept to explain how the comments make up a meaningful portion of this and it's not all just the raw numbers and you're acting like none of that happened?

I mean OK, if you think they're just liars I guess that's the beginning and end of that conversation.

 

[mamba]

This is a very, very important point. Humans are humans, and being human we like to complain loudly to everyone who wants to hear it, and also to the other 99% who don't. When we are happy, though, we rarely go out of our way to make sure everyone knows it.

to me you have the 1 to 5 to express your level of dislike / like. Comments should not factor into this at all, you can add proposals there etc, but you disliking something does not make it stronger because you wrote 'I hate this' in the comment box.