D&D General What is player agency to you?

@Manbearcat @pemerton @soviet @hawkeyefan

Let's say the four of you are sitting down to a game of D&D/PF2e/some-d20-system, (as it's the only system I run willingly). I pull out the map of the world, give you a brief world history/geography lesson. Nothing too granular, just really enough to give a conceptual idea of the gameworld. I tell you that we will begin the game in Townshire, and I ask you all to tell me what it is you're doing there and why you're there doing it.

What are your thoughts about this so far? Have we already gone off the rails as far as you're concerned?


Too information-poor of an environment to have any well-developed thoughts. My crude thoughts would be:

* If its any PF, I would lean “this is going to be Trad AP play.” If its PF2e I would append “with pretty slick combat” to that.

* If its 3.x, I would lean 50/50 “this is going to be Trad AP play” or “this is going to be a breezy sandox/Hickman Revolution-ey game that features an abundance of metaplot(s), setting tourism, setting exploration, and some crawling.”

* If its 5e, I would split 1/3 all “this is going to be Trad AP play”, or “this is going to be a breezy sandbox/Hickman Revolution-ey game that features an abundance of metaplot(s), setting tourism, setting exploration, and some crawling,” or “this is going to be NeoTrad, GM-curated Power Fantasy play in which the players bring character conception and affectation via BIFTs and Backgrounds as ribbons with GM discretion in giving them mechanical impact (with some features of sandbox exploration and some features of hardcore challenge-based play).”




So wildcards still pending.
 

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Too information-poor of an environment to have any well-developed thoughts. My crude thoughts would be:

* If its any PF, I would lean “this is going to be Trad AP play.” If its PF2e I would append “with pretty slick combat” to that.

* If its 3.x, I would lean 50/50 “this is going to be Trad AP play” or “this is going to be a breezy sandox/Hickman Revolution-ey game that features an abundance of metaplot(s), setting tourism, setting exploration, and some crawling.”

* If its 5e, I would split 1/3 all “this is going to be Trad AP play”, or “this is going to be a breezy sandbox/Hickman Revolution-ey game that features an abundance of metaplot(s), setting tourism, setting exploration, and some crawling,” or “this is going to be NeoTrad, GM-curated Power Fantasy play in which the players bring character conception and affectation via BIFTs and Backgrounds as ribbons with GM discretion in giving them mechanical impact (with some features of sandbox exploration and some features of hardcore challenge-based play).”




So wildcards still pending.
It's a game where most likely the GM is getting overthrown! :)
 

🤨 I don't know why you are implying that I don't trust the people that I play with. I'm saying that many past DMs in past games in which I have partaken have made similar promises that they have failed to deliever.
I suggested what I would do for a player that wanted their personal goals to be relevant in a game I run. Your response was essentially, "that sounds nice, but I've been hurt before". That to me is a question of trust.
 

You can't be helped if you don't trust the people you play with.

This reads very much like blaming the victim.

You (generic, but inclusive) cannot help him, or anyone else, if you are not willing to meet them where they are, and work with the situation they actually have. Pontification on what they "should" do does not qualify as helping.
 

I suggested what I would do for a player that wanted their personal goals to be relevant in a game I run. Your response was essentially, "that sounds nice, but I've been hurt before". That to me is a question of trust.

I can't say what it may be in @Aldarc 's case, but I have had similar experiences. I don't think that there was any ill-intent or anything like that going on, I just think it's a by-product of heavily DM-lead play.

The amount of times I've been asked to create a character with the setting in mind, and to craft a backstory or other similar elements, only to do so and then share them with the DM... and then wonder why they never come up at all in play.

In the cases I can think of, I think it's more a matter of the gravity of the "main story" that's in play, and any deviation from that as potentially disruptive to the other participants (whether this fear is warranted or only perceived may remain unclear). There are often very strong expectations around what play will be about, so any shift in that could disturb the group dynamic. It's possible it can be welcomed as well... it's certainly not impossible, but I don't think that it has to be about a lack of trust.

Sometimes the game momentum is around the DM's ideas, and maybe it's hard to find the time to fit anything else into play, or some folks are happy not to have that stuff even come up, and so despite the intention to include it prior to play, once play begins it quickly vanishes. I've done this myself, I think back over my DMing of years ago, and I realize this kind of stuff was happening pretty often. Other times, I'd succeed with it, but there were times I didn't.
 

@Manbearcat @pemerton @soviet @hawkeyefan

Let's say the four of you are sitting down to a game of D&D/PF2e/some-d20-system, (as it's the only system I run willingly). I pull out the map of the world, give you a brief world history/geography lesson. Nothing too granular, just really enough to give a conceptual idea of the gameworld. I tell you that we will begin the game in Townshire, and I ask you all to tell me what it is you're doing there and why you're there doing it.

What are your thoughts about this so far? Have we already gone off the rails as far as you're concerned?

I already replied to something like this upthread, didn't I?

What is going to happen if I tell you that my PC is in Townshire because my mentor told me that's where I can find the herbs that will let us brew the potion that will revive my cousin from the magical sleep the local warlock tyrant has placed him into?
 

I already replied to something like this upthread, didn't I?

What is going to happen if I tell you that my PC is in Townshire because my mentor told me that's where I can find the herbs that will let us brew the potion that will revive my cousin from the magical sleep the local warlock tyrant has placed him into?
Did you discuss that with the DM prior to introducing the character to play?
 

Off the rails in what way? I'm assuming this is known to be a game of D&D 5e, right? If so, then I don't think there's anything I have a problem with regarding the above. But I'd probably want to know more. If we had played together for a long time, I'd likely have a very good idea of what to expect. But since this would be our first game, I'd likely have some questions.

But this is very similar to how the game I'm currently playing in started. We had a region and a general description of it, and then we made characters.

Seems pretty standard approach for D&D.
So, as I posted upthread (and as @Manbearcat has riffed on not far upthread), I think Torchbearer is an interesting case study that I've described as "intermediate". I think Manbearcat is correct to intuit that I'm drifting it as far as it can be drifted away from hard step-on-up play to story-now play, while keeping the mechanical framework intact.

The reason I mention that by way of preface is this: in my first Torchbearer session, I was using a scenario from the Cartographer's Companion - "The Tower of Stars". So from the story now perspective, there is more fiction pre-established by the GM than would be the case in (say) Burning Wheel.

We started the session with PC gen, and I laid down my Greyhawk map, pointed to the region around the Bandit Kingdoms/Tenh/The Pale, and said that this is where things start. (Because Torchbearer defaults to taking place in "the north", and that is a northern part of GH.) One PC was from the Wizard's Tower, and suggested that it was in the Bluff Hills. Another was from Elfhome, and I think I might have skimmed the gazetteer before suggesting that was to the north (I can't remember the name of the woods north/west of the Bluff Hills). The player whose PC came from a Forgotten Temple Complex told us quite assertively that it was in the Theocracy of the Pale.

Players decided on their friends, family members and enemies. Then we went around, and everyone told us why their PCs was here at the Tower of Stars. I don't recall most of the answers, which suggests they were probably mere colour, except for one. The player of the Ranger from Elfhome was looking for his enemy, his brother, and thought he might have come through the Tower. And had the PCs actually got to the bit of the Tower that had papers in it (as it turns out, they didn't) I was ready to resolve the action declaration to search for the brother's name in the records and log books.

To me, what I've just described seems clearly to involve less player agency than Burning Wheel. But more than what you've described as default for D&D 5e. This is why my response to @Raiztt's question is much the same as @soviet's - the presentation of the situation leaves out all the stuff that actually lets me know whether or not I am interested in playing that game. But @Manbearcat does seem correct in his conjectures as to where things are probably heading, and none looks as high in agency as Torchbearer let alone Burning Wheel.
 

Seems to me that calling it a D&D game naturally includes all that.
Not at all. The thread was started by someone who very proudly runs a "hard railroad."

Again, calling it a D&D game should care for the whole process... framing -> player action -> revealing pieces of ruins/forest -> repeat
Again, not at all. Railroading has been actively defended in this very thread by at least one person (IIRC two, but it's long enough now that tracking that down would be rather tedious.)

I'm still shocked you immediately went to railroad and even more shocked that you tried to blame that on me.
Why? It's literally been a key part of the thread this whole time! I've repeatedly used railroading as an example of reduced or eliminated agency. If it's allegedly on "my side" to always be hyperspecific about choices needing to be both distinct and meaningful, as @mamba claims, then why should it not be "on you" to specify that you aren't limiting things to GM prep and are instead using that simply as one input among many? Particularly when we've had other posters rather hostile to the very idea of "framing -> player action."

Also, "revealing places of interest" rather points to a pure GM-authorship direction. The place of interest is already created. The players are already going to go there. It sounds very much like all that they decide is, in effect, what route they happen to walk through the amusement park before they arrive at the place.
 


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