D&D 5E What are the "True Issues" with 5e?

[Mannahnin]

Yeah, its ridiculous. It also doesn't actually say fighters do that anywhere; the rules just allow for it. I already told you that's not enough for me.

That... that's like the core of what Fighters and other melee characters DO at high levels.

They fight giant monsters. Sometimes even Kaiju-equivalents like the Tarrasque. Or hordes of lesser foes.

Slaying a dragon in combat is basically THE iconic hero activity. Going back to Siegfried and St. George.

 

[Micah Sweet]

As is killing a gargantuan dragon with a piece of metal that realistically isn't long enough to get through their scales and hide, let alone reach anything major.

Yeah, it's a real problem. I don't even know how to visualize it.

 

[Gammadoodler]

If you're insisting on going that high, I agree it should apply to everyone. But it doesn't work right if all you talk about are the magic people.

That's fair. It's definitely something they could be better about.

 

[mamba]

Expertise is like science in that that once you get enough of either, they are functionally identical. To paraphrase that one saying.

that is not paraphrasing, that is butchering…

“Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic”.

Experience and science are not like each other at all, and even if they were, science isn’t technology (but it can lead to that)

 

[Stalker0]

I am not looking for Superman, the TTRPG.

Aka your not looking for high level dnd.

And this to me is the issue right here. The problem is that dnd is relatively grounded for a reasonable portion of its level range (and very importantly, the level range that the VAST majority of players play at).

The issue always comes as you move into the 10+ level range, and the game changes in scope as the power level crosses a certain threshold. That is the threshold when the mundane must give way to teh mythical. A "mortal man" has no place doing the things that level 20 characters are expected to do or face.

But people don't want their character "forced" into a new mold. I was planning a "mundane fighter" and by gum I want to keep playing my mundane fighter! But the reality is, just as mid level dnd doesn't handle gritty fantasy very well (as opposed to levels 1-2 which are pretty deadly), high level dnd doesn't do mundane....that ship has sailed.

Those levels exist for people to do fantastical, basically supernatural things. And if you don't want that for your game that is absolutely fine, just stop leveling. Again we already know most campaigns stop at 10th level, partly for that very narrative reason. So either start a new game, or keep the game going but stop leveling. 10th is your new capstone, and can be enjoyed while still playing a mostly grounded martial. But if your pushing past that mark, you have to respect that your entering a new phase of the game, and mundane doesn't cut it anymore.

Now I will say that while 4e was terrible with integrating game mechanics with the narrative (honestly I think its signature flaw), this is an area it did very well. The paragon paths in 4e not only providing mechanic benefits as you cross into the 11+ and the 21+ level ranges, but it providing a NARRATIVE package as well. So why is my fighter suddenly turning into this mystical nigh supernatural badass? Well its because:

• Turns out they are a demi-god, and have started to realize their full potential.
• They have become the chosen of god X.
• They have exposed to magic so often its begun to infuse in their body.

Etc etc. So a player could choose their package and it would provide some narrative rationale for why their character is "evolving" as the new tiers are met. This is I think something that all editions could use. Its nice to point out the narrative difference that happens around 11th level and actually make it a conversation piece. DMs should get some guidance and inspiration to talk to their players or include in game how the characters start to change at this point in the game. ITs not just "gaining Xp and get more power" its "you all are starting to peel back the cosmic curtain, and now some things are happening".

 

[mamba]

One of those options is a sentient machine for heaven's sake.

so is my PC or Roomba (at least for arguments sake), and they can do much less than a human

 

[mamba]

Aka your not looking for high level dnd.

I thought I was pretty clear about that

And this to me is the issue right here. The problem is that dnd is relatively grounded for a reasonable portion of its level range (and very importantly, the level range that the VAST majority of players play at).

I said at least once that the saving grace is that most people do not play past levels 10 or 12

I’d even drop those down a notch. Well, I’d buff melee a bit and drop casters down two notches…

If there were a compatible game that stops at say level 12 and does this, so I can use / transfer monsters, adventures, etc., I’d switch in a heartbeat.

But if your pushing past that mark, you have to respect that your entering a new phase of the game, and mundane doesn't cut it anymore.

I am perfectly ok with that, my concern is that whatever you guys do at level 15+ will invariably pollute the levels below

 

[Warpiglet-7]

I would love it you had to actually use intelligent tactics to fight very large creatures, like in real life. This toe to toe thing is just nuts.

I always like to punch up as it were as a player.

I got a little whining from my friends recently when I threw a bunch of upper level monsters at them. And when I say upper level I mean a bunch of orcs with a ballista outnumbering level one characters

I did not tell you to engage head on! I did not tell you to have your scout engage! Lure them into the favorable point THROUGH a choke point and pepper them when they cross difficult terrain, etc etc

You can arrange for the players to NEED tactics with rules as they are. I would not do that to my youngest kids but adult players? Think before drawing that sword! Tough can be fair and achievable with 5e

 

[Vaalingrade]

D&D Fans - "Playing non-humans as human-like without writing xenofiction is wrong and bad"

Also D&D Fans - "Every playable species needs to observe human limitations"

 

[Gammadoodler]

so is my PC or Roomba (at least for arguments sake), and they can do much less than a human

Do you regularly calculate pi out to thousands of decimals in a fraction of a second?

Or use powerful suction to ingest dirt from your floors.

Would you consider yourself to have similar biological mechanisms to either?

Edit: I mean we can go down this path if you want but "similar ability scores means similar biology" is, I think, the single dumbest position I've ever seen someone take with respect to D&D settings.