D&D 5E What are the "True Issues" with 5e?

[Ruin Explorer]

some want a grounded fiction that players can relate to and understand, not superheroes.

Then they shouldn't be playing D&D, because no edition of D&D in the previous 50 years features that unless strictly keep things below level 7 or so, and are very careful about what elements you allow in the game.

Whereas there are plenty of RPGs about exactly that.

 

[Minigiant]

I think the issue one poster had with players not knowing how to interact with things (NPCs or the environment) is partially caused by this disconnect too. They somehow believe the solution to anything must be on the char sheet instead of just behaving like a ‘normal human being’.

The disconnect is that for the most part, a lot of players don't roleplay characters that are themselves today as much as they did in the past.

So you have a party with a 8 Charisma barbarian and a 18 Charisma bard have have to run a conversation. Do you force rolls and push out the Barbarian player from the conversation? Do you ignore rolls and invalidate the bard?

Older editions had Charisma do almost jack squat so there was no problem and nothing to look down at for players or worry about for DMs. You are Johnny controlling Johnny the Barbarian.

In 5e, you are Morgoth the Barbarian and has Morgoth's features that does stuff and a party of other players not runing themselves as PCs wit PC features.

5e changed the rules then pretented it didn't.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The biggest problem with 5e is that everyone wants WotC to “fix” their particular issue while completely ignoring the many existing solutions.

It's not just lack of trust, but that is a big part of it, it's also because of lack of integration into things like D&D Beyond.

But personally lack of trust is primary, because for all WotC's flaws, far less of their work is a terribly-balanced, poorly-conceived disasters which breaks basic principles of how 5E's math and systems work than 3PPs.

Even good 3PPs, like Critical Role/Darrington have absolute trash-tier balancing and mediocre rules understandings in most of their products.

You do occasionally see a 3PP which is just brilliant or shows real understanding of the rules (A5E is the latter, for example), but even looking high-end 3PP products, it's the exception not the rule when it comes to classes, species, and so on.

I should point out I own quite a few 3PP class/subclass/species products for 5E, and I like that. There is not a single one of them that I would consider well-balanced nor add to my game without modifying or severely caveating (except A5E maybe, but that's really a different-but-related game). Not even one.

Whereas there are bunch of 3PP adventures which I would run unmodified (or with only lore/story mods), and weirdly a bunch of spells which are just fine (though there are other spells from the same books I would just disallow).

 

[Hussar]

It's not just lack of trust, but that is a big part of it, it's also because of lack of integration into things like D&D Beyond.

But personally lack of trust is primary, because for all WotC's flaws, far less of their work is a terribly-balanced, poorly-conceived disasters which breaks basic principles of how 5E's math and systems work than 3PPs.

Even good 3PPs, like Critical Role/Darrington have absolute trash-tier balancing and mediocre rules understandings in most of their products.

You do occasionally see a 3PP which is just brilliant or shows real understanding of the rules (A5E is the latter, for example), but even looking high-end 3PP products, it's the exception not the rule when it comes to classes, species, and so on.

Meh, balance in 5e is so fluid that I find that most of the time, it's a wash. This isn't 3e where a minor change could have large impact. Most of this stuff is perfectly fine and very much in keeping with what the core books are.

Let's not forget too, it's been 10 years. The 3pp community has had a LOOOONG time to get good at this sort of thing. Publishers like @M.T. Black for example. And, frankly, most of the rule modules are only a couple of bucks - 10 to 20 at most. If it's not great, ah well, it's not like it's a huge problem.

Now, the D&D Beyond integration? I can see that. That's a PITA. I know that I specifically look for stuff that has Fantasy Grounds modules when I hunt for new goodies.

But the idea of 3pp being this horrible broken mess just isn't true anymore. At least, not in my experience. People have gotten very, very good at making stuff.

 

[mamba]

Then they shouldn't be playing D&D, because no edition of D&D in the previous 50 years features that unless strictly keep things below level 7 or so, and are very careful about what elements you allow in the game.

heroes <> superheroes, although I agree that after level 15 or so that was invariably the case. But then most people do not play that far, so it is not really a problem, the problem is that it happens much sooner now

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Meh, balance in 5e is so fluid that I find that most of the time, it's a wash.

I feel like you're somehow finding a better quality of 3PPs to me!

My experience is it's not a wash at all, it's just bad.

But the 3PP market is vast and I've only seen what I've seen (but again that does include Critical Role and most of their stuff is good for 3PP standards but awful by 5E standards).

Also cards on the table, I think 5E is easily the best-balanced non-4E edition of D&D (and less possible to break than 4E, but not quite as well-balanced generally).

Now, the D&D Beyond integration? I can see that. That's a PITA. I know that I specifically look for stuff that has Fantasy Grounds modules when I hunt for new goodies.

Yeah we can only hope Beyond does more as time goes on. It'd make them an awful lot of money!

But the idea of 3pp being this horrible broken mess just isn't true anymore. At least, not in my experience. People have gotten very, very good at making stuff.

To be clear, I'm not saying all of it is - but the vast majority of what I've encountered has been somewhere been totally broken and slightly subpar in a way that indicates the designer doesn't even understand 5E as well as I do, which I would consider a low bar! Some of it is definitely very attractive whilst being terrible rules, I should note - I have a crocodile-person race book I really like for example but the rules really range from LOL BROKEN to "Almost..." even in just one book.

 

[mamba]

So you have a party with a 8 Charisma barbarian and a 18 Charisma bard have have to run a conversation. Do you force rolls and push out the Barbarian player from the conversation? Do you ignore rolls and invalidate the bard?

I invalidate the Bard, every time. A Bard with a stupid idea and high Charisma will do better than a Fighter with the same idea, but a Fighter with a good idea will win the day

I am not just rolling Persuasion, you have to persuade first, that then gives you the DC

 

[Minigiant]

Here’s another true issue:

Lack of trust for non-WotC sources.

Almost all the stuff talked about - mundane fighters, etc- has a solution on Dms Guild. They’re right there. You want ship combat systems? There’s at least four on dms guild. I know because I own them.

The biggest problem with 5e is that everyone wants WotC to “fix” their particular issue while completely ignoring the many existing solutions.

Because alot of 3pp content is junk outside of the campaigns they were designed for.

Much because of the same problems in the DMG. Most 3pp is not designed with their implication in mind or only for their campaigns.

 

[Micah Sweet]

That's the definition of "DM empowerment" you asked me for.

By taking absolutely no stance on an issue, it empowers the DM to run the game as they see fit! No rules or advice to impede the DM's judgement.

Why are we arguing about Human capabilities when the DM will just set them to be however mundane or epic they desire? It's their game!

Because if you prefer humans to be more down to earth, the mechanics don't support that view, even if the text isn't definitive either way.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yeah funny that right? D&D has always been about heroic characters (again, ancient Greek/Conan-style meaning), and 5E is no less like that.

I don't think WotC has the same definition of hero that you do, and I don't agree with theirs.