D&D General Why the resistance to D&D being a game?

[ECMO3]

D&D is creationist. We decide what is and isn't real. We determine the thematic lines.

Sure. Then my decisions (and reasoning for those decisions) are as relevant as anyone else's.

Why are you offering options in a game that is supposed to be cooperative and teamwork-based, where some of them are abject inferiors to others? That betrays both the spirit and the explicit description of the game.

Teamwork is the reason why. Using teamwork and creativity to overcome built-in disadvantages. IMO that is the spirit of the game (and largely the fiction)

 

[MuhVerisimilitude]

I’m not sure how “normal person” plus “trained well” and “extremely grounded” could possible yield “jump to the moon.”

ETA: Ah, it’s satire.

It was not satire.

When I say grounded I mean grounded in the sense that the explanation for how they can do it is realistic. Which it is: It's plainly realistic to be able to train yourself until you are good. It is grounded in the sense that there is no mumbo-jumbo.

 

[mamba]

When I say grounded I mean grounded in the sense that the explanation for how they can do it is realistic. Which it is: It's plainly realistic to be able to train yourself until you are good.

so you say it is realistic that if someone trained hard enough, they could jump to the moon?

 

[ECMO3]

no they are not, they show that D&D has done this for a long time, in no way do they demonstrate that it has to be like that, or even should

They show specifically what was asked for - examples in fantasy Literature of non-casters being inferior to casters. Further

Your contention here very strongly supports my point with those posts that this is very common in fantasy literature. The counter argument, and the one I replied to when I offered those, is that this "it's obviously not generally true in any era of fantasy literature"

Suggesting that D&D has done this for a long time is contrary to the idea that this is "obviously not generally true"

 

[mamba]

Teamwork is the reason why. Using teamwork and creativity to overcome built-in disadvantages. IMO that is the spirit of the game (and largely the fiction)

so the fighters follow the spirit of the game while the casters are the godlike beings that help them when they stumble, no thanks.

You can all be equally good at different things and complement each other, that too results in teamwork

 

[MuhVerisimilitude]

so you say it is realistic that if someone trained hard enough, they could jump to the moon?

I never said it was realistic. I said it was grounded. It was completely void of "magic" of any kind.

It is what TV-tropes would call a charles atlas superpower.

 

[mamba]

They show specifically what was asked for - examples in fantasy Literature of non-casters being inferior to casters.

they do not show a theme that requires D&D to be that way when the examples are taken from D&D itself.

Suggesting that D&D has done this for a long time is contrary to the idea that this is "obviously not generally true"

what D&D did is not relevant to whether there is a theme outside D&D that says that it should do so, it just shows that it did.

As I said, ‘we always have done it this way’ is not an argument to keep doing it. Your outside literature could be an argument, the D&D one simply is not

 

[ECMO3]

It isn't.

It's obviously and patently wrong to make that claim. It's baseless and equivalent to saying "The sky is green!".

I am not lying. It is very much true in the

What are the literary examples where non-spell users can perform equivalent feats as spell user?. I offered examples stretching from the 40s to modern times.

I think it is obviously false to suggest that in fiction with magic, magic is not generally supreme. That is what is like saying the sky is green.

Neither of them is a wizard, they're angels, both of them. So comparing to PCs in a game is completely to misunderstand Tolkien's lore. I guess you've never read LotR?

I have read all of LOTR, multiple times and Gandalf is regularly called a "Wizard".

Further the most spectacular physics-breaking accomplishments done by the non-Wizards in that game are done using magic, not mundane methods. Bilbo is not able to just sneak past Goblins or into Smaug's lair because he is a Thief and stealthy, he uses magic to accomplish that. I would argue a D&D Rogue can mechanically do a LOT more than in game than Bilbo did in the literature without resorting to magic.

I have no idea who "Gromph" and "Pickel" are, unless you mean the D&D characters?

They are examples from the Drizzt novels. A Wizard and A Druid respectively.

 

[ECMO3]

so the fighters follow the spirit of the game while the casters are the godlike beings that help them when they stumble, no thanks.

The spirit of the game and the spirit of the fiction the game is based on (which as a point of fact predates TSR)

You can all be equally good at different things and complement each other, that too results in teamwork

Or you can be non-equally good and complement each other. The latter has far more flavor and is far more fun IMO.

 

[mamba]

I never said it was realistic. I said it was grounded. It was completely void of "magic" of any kind.

you said it is realistic to be able to train until you are good to explain how someone can jump to the moon without magic, so this feels very nitpicky.

That is like saying it is grounded in reality that a car can go at the speed of light, because we know that cars can drive at 50 mph, and this is just more of the same