D&D General Why the resistance to D&D being a game?

[mamba]

Perhaps, but there are other wizards. Sauron was called The Necromancer when he resided in Dol Guldor and it wasn't known that The Necromancer was Sauron. A necromancer is a wizard.

Sauron is a Necromancer in the same way the five Maiar are Wizards. We know that there are other spellcasters among e.g. the Elves.

 

[Maxperson]

do we know that other Maiar cannot cast spells?

They have been described using powers such as the Girdle of Melian, but not spells that I know of. Other than The Necromancer of Dol Guldur who wasn't known to be a maia, even though he was Sauron.

I am not aware of there being any more than five. Are you?

Order of Wizards

The Order of Wizards (Quenya: Heren Istarion), or simply Wizards (Q.: Istari), were a group of Maiar sent to Middle-earth by the Valar in the early Third Age[1] around TA 1050 when the "Necromancer" became active in Dol Guldur.[2] They were embodied as elderly Men and entrusted to aid the Free...

lotr.fandom.com

"The Order of Wizards (Quenya: Heren Istarion), or simply Wizards (Q.: Istari), were a group of Maiar sent to Middle-earth by the Valar in the Second and Third Ages. They were embodied as elderly Men and entrusted to aid the Free Peoples against the threat of Sauron's conquest by lending them their wisdom and counsel. They were originally known as Five Guardians"


Not sure what book that is. I am going by the wiki, and that says they were chosen by the Valar from the Maiar and the five chosen ones were referred to as the Istari / Wizards

I'd have to look for it, but I thought they were chosen from the Order of the Istari, but I could be misremembering that part. In any case we know at least one other wizard The Necromancer and who knows how many other mortal spellcasters. Istari = Wizard, but we don't know that Wizard = Istari.

 

[Maxperson]

Sauron is a Necromancer in the same way the five Maiar are Wizards

But they didn't know he was maia. The elves and Istari new he was The Necromancer, but that's the extent of their knowledge. If mortals couldn't be wizards, they'd have known he was maia and would have at least very strongly suspected that he was Sauron. Other than the Balrogs, there weren't a whole lot of evil maiar floating around during that age.

The pool of evil non-balrog maia was......................1

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Perhaps, but there are other wizards. Sauron was called The Necromancer when he resided in Dol Guldor and it wasn't known that The Necromancer was Sauron. A necromancer is a wizard.

I'm sorry but no. A necromancer is a wizard specialist or subclass in D&D. It was not a wizard in the 1940s - it was a spellcaster, absolutely, but Tolkien uses "wizard" very specifically - only for Istari. He never uses it colloquially as far as I recall.

I'd have to look for it, but I thought they were chosen from the Order of the Istari, but I could be misremembering that part. In any case we know at least one other wizard The Necromancer and who knows how many other mortal spellcasters. Istari = Wizard, but we don't know that Wizard = Istari.

We do know that.

Until you provide evidence that the people on Tolkien Gateway are wrong, which won't happen, because people will have been trying for a decade or two at this point, you must accept we do know that.

What you're likely remembering is MERP or One Ring or something making up that wizards were just "a thing" generally.

 

[Maxperson]

I'm sorry but no. A necromancer is a wizard specialist or subclass in D&D. It was not a wizard in the 1940s - it was a spellcaster, absolutely, but Tolkien uses "wizard" very specifically - only for Istari. He never uses it colloquially as far as I recall.

Does it really matter if the mortal spellcaster that casts lightning bolt is a sorcerer, Sauron when he casts lightning bolt is The Necromancer, and Gandalf when he casts lightning bolt is a wizard? It's semantics at that point. They're all spellcasters who use magic to cast spells.

What you're likely remembering is MERP or One Ring or something making up that wizards were just "a thing" generally.

That could be. MERP or I.C.E. most likely.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Does it really matter if the mortal spellcaster that casts lightning bolt is a sorcerer, Sauron when he casts lightning bolt is The Necromancer, and Gandalf when he casts lightning bolt is a wizard? It's semantics at that point. They're all spellcasters who use magic to cast spells.

That could be. MERP or I.C.E. most likely.

I loved MERP! It was my first experience with the gamification of Middle-Earth.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Does it really matter if the mortal spellcaster that casts lightning bolt is a sorcerer, Sauron when he casts lightning bolt is The Necromancer, and Gandalf when he casts lightning bolt is a wizard? It's semantics at that point. They're all spellcasters who use magic to cast spells.

To me? Yes, because Tolkien uses the term wizard precisely and limited, but YMMV. Wizard and "spellcaster" are quite different things. I mean, I don't think Tolkien didn't call The Necromancer The Wizard just by accident.

I loved MERP! It was my first experience with the gamification of Middle-Earth.

MERP was honestly amazing. One of the least lore-and-tone accurate LotR-based TT RPGs but one of the most fun and fascinating ones (and what it lacked in accuracy it made up for in enthusiasm!).

 

[mamba]

But they didn't know he was maia.

that does not change that he is one. The people call them that based on what they understand, just like they did with the 5 wizards.

 

[Maxperson]

that does not change that he is one. The people call them that based on what they understand, just like they did with the 5 wizards.

Again, if it was only possible for maiar to use magic, they would have known he was Sauron before ever going there. They didn't know, because The Necromancer could have been a mortal.

 

[mamba]

Does it really matter if the mortal spellcaster that casts lightning bolt is a sorcerer, Sauron when he casts lightning bolt is The Necromancer, and Gandalf when he casts lightning bolt is a wizard? It's semantics at that point. They're all spellcasters who use magic to cast spells.

it matters when you want to establish how strong a caster should be that is not also secretly an angel