D&D 5E What are the "True Issues" with 5e?

[overgeeked]

Worth noting that, in 5e, players don't just "make" a Persuasion or Intimidate. They describe what they want their PC to do. The DM then decides if a particular check is appropriate (uncertainty in the outcome coupled with a meaningful consequence for failure), given the context of the scene. So, in essence, yes, of course the PC could still try to convince the NPC - or unnerve them, or try countless other things - after failing a Wisdom(Insight) check.

Someone should tell the players that. They generally shout the name of a skill and throw dice without prompting from the referee.

 

[Oofta]

Someone should tell the players that. They generally shout the name of a skill and throw dice without prompting from the referee.

First, I've never had anyone just "shout" and roll. Second, if they're doing intimidation or persuasion I'll simply ask what they're saying. It's not hard. Third, it's largely just a matter of preference. Fourth sometimes it's just a time saver. Last, there's no one true way and for a lot of people being forced to be overly descriptive just becomes rote and boring.

 

[CreamCloud0]

i'm of the opinion that everybody should get 1 expertise to apply to one of their starting skills, the greater presence of it would help soften the effect of the d20's swingy nature on skill checks and create a target for DCs that is the range of explicit specialists.

 

[Parmandur]

One thing that I’d like to see in the new edition that a lot of DMs do anyway, is that certain skill rolls require training to be able to attempt: for instance, in order to attempt to decipher the runes, you need training in Arcana.

It is something I’ve seen people complain about on forums, but in all games I’ve played, it is acknowledged that for some uses of skills, you need to be trained to attempt the check.

I mean, that's in the rules, in the DMG. The published Adventures call out trained only Skill checks. That's not something "a lot of DMs do anyway," that is standard 5E.

 

[overgeeked]

First, I've never had anyone just "shout" and roll.

I have. Quite a lot. So much so that I’ve written it into my house rules document. Players do not declare rolls; the referee asks for rolls. Despite it being how the game is supposed to operate.

Second, if they're doing intimidation or persuasion I'll simply ask what they're saying.

As do I.

It's not hard.

No, but it’s incredibly tedious to have to train the players in basic table manners.

Third, it's largely just a matter of preference.

It’s a matter of procedure.

Fourth sometimes it's just a time saver.

Vanishingly rarely.

Last, there's no one true way and for a lot of people being forced to be overly descriptive just becomes rote and boring.

Not “overly descriptive.” Rather descriptive at all. Yes, you have to put in at least a minimal effort into a basic description of what your character does in the fiction. Shouting a skill name and throwing dice is not descriptive at all.

 

[Oofta]

I have. Quite a lot. So much so that I’ve written it into my house rules. Players do not declare rolls; the referee asks for rolls.

As do I.

No, but it’s incredibly tedious to have to train the players in basic table manners.

It’s a matter of procedure.

Vanishingly rarely.

Not “overly descriptive.” Rather descriptive at all. Yes, you have to put in at least a minimal effort into a basic description of what your character does in the fiction. Shouting a skill name and throwing dice is not descriptive at all.

I don't find it tedious, I accept that people have different styles of expressing themselves and while I encourage more engagement I don't force it. Generally speaking, I lead by example and people learn that it's okay to be a bit silly at my table. I've played D&D pretty much since it's inception, I don't remember a single person "shouting and rolling" anything.

 

[overgeeked]

I don't find it tedious,

Good for you. I do.

I accept that people have different styles of expressing themselves and while I encourage more engagement I don't force it.

But the prospect of different lived experiences seems to be too much.

Generally speaking, I lead by example and people learn that it's okay to be a bit silly at my table.

Not sure what being silly has to do with this.

I've played D&D pretty much since it's inception, I don't remember a single person "shouting and rolling" anything.

I’ve played since 1984 and it happens a lot. Both in games I run and games I play in. But, weirdly, only in 5E games.

 

[Velderan]

I’ve played since 1984 and it happens a lot. Both in games I run and games I play in. But, weirdly, only in 5E games.

When my group started out playing at a FLGS, I'd sometimes watch other tables play while we were on a break or waiting to start and I definitely saw players just declare they were trying to persuade a shopkeeper and roll before the DM responded. Insight was definitely the most common skill check that a player would just roll immediately after declaring they were doing it. That all having been said, this was just casual observation without me understanding their session 0 discussion (if they had one). I never saw a DM push back, so maybe they were fine with it.

 

[Parmandur]

When my group started out playing at a FLGS, I'd sometimes watch other tables play while we were on a break or waiting to start and I definitely saw players just declare they were trying to persuade a shopkeeper and roll before the DM responded. Insight was definitely the most common skill check that a player would just roll immediately after declaring they were doing it. That all having been said, this was just casual observation without me understanding their session 0 discussion (if they had one). I never saw a DM push back, so maybe they were fine with it.

That was somewhat normalized in 3E, and it's not abnormal for people to transport practices from other Editions into whatever they are playing.

 

[Velderan]

That was somewhat normalized in 3E, and it's not abnormal for people to transport practices from other Editions into whatever they are playing.

Makes sense. I didn't play 3e or 4e, so anything that might have been normalized for some people during those editions would be lost on me.