D&D General Why the resistance to D&D being a game?

[Azzy]

It's magic. I want a fighter that doesn't rely on magic.

It's not magic regardless of how many times you say it.

 

[Oofta]

Yep sure..explicitly at their tables too. And that's only assuming that both you and they are directly telling the players at your table that this is the case.

Because..the game does NOT explicitly label these maneuvers as supernatural. It doesn't even hint that they are supernatural. It might even be fair to say that the game goes out of its way to avoid any language that could possibly lead people to construe that the maneuvers are supernatural.

The only reason they are explicitly supernatural at your or others' tables is that you and others have taken special effort to write your own rules which take precedence over what is in the book, because that is how homebrew rules work.

They are "explicitly supernatural" at your table in the same way that all spells are "explicitly mundane" at my table.

The label applied has nothing to do with the core archetype assumptions.

 

[Cadence]

Oh wow, that's kind of a pathetically low bar compared to what i'd imagine a barbarian would be capable of lifting, a 20 str goliath can lift...a slightly more overweight than average horse, i'd expect a max strength fantasy world barb to be swinging in the range of the loaded school bus, or 10 tons at the least.

I wonder if part of that is that movie and comic book writers apparently don't have a clue what a bus, or train, or boat weigh and have ruined our perceptions of relative weights?

It definitely feels like the ogre should be lifting a small car, the middle sized giant a pick-up truck, and the titan a bus to me though!

 

[Oofta]

It's not magic regardless of how many times you say it.

It's not not magic no matter how many times you say it. Your point? I'm entitled to my opinion as are you. Not the end of the world if we disagree.

 

[Gammadoodler]

and the taunt relates to fighting in which way?

I am ok with the fighter being good at fighting, but not to the point where he is The Hulk. If that is what it takes to keep up with the casters, the issue us with the casters

It applies to most other mundane skills the same way. The guy who is really good at sneaking, balancing, intimidating, deceiving, etc.

The taunt isn't even that ridiculous. There are rules against taunting in various sports leagues for a reason.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I wonder if part of that is that movie and comic book writers apparently don't have a clue what a bus, or train, or boat weigh and have ruined our perceptions of relative weights?

It definitely feels like the ogre should be lifting a car, the giant a truck, and the titan a bus to me though!

The rules for weight are there to limit what PCs can do and carry; a remnant of the days when gold was XP, so the DM made it so the players couldn't make off with enough XP to be survivable in the next session.

There's really no expectation that these limiters would be used to prevent an ogre from ripping an ancient oak out of the ground and beating people with it.

 

[Campbell]

and the taunt relates to fighting in which way?

I am ok with the fighter being good at fighting, but not to the point where he is The Hulk. If that is what it takes to keep up with the casters, the issue us with the casters

I'm not fond of using Hulk over say Beowulf, but keeping up with casters is not the issue for me personally. It's keeping up with frost giants, ancient dragons, balors, mariliths, efretti and the like. It's being the sort of character who feels equipped to contend with the things they contend with and not just in a fight.

 

[M_Natas]

Okay.

What even is this. I've seen some reaches to put down other playstyles before, but this is a new kind of special.

How in the world is giving the player some narrative control and acknowledging that you're doing so turning the game into Candy Crush?

And further, what alchemy is happening that makes it not Candy Crush is you say it's magic while doing the exact same thing?

How is anyone supposed to take these argument seriously when they are so inherently inconsistent and couched on something as insulting and facile as calling the alternative Candy Crush, which is the latest version of the bad argumentation of calling the opposition WoW or Diablo or Superhero or Anime.?

Have you never seen those candy crush clones? Where you fight monsters and dragons and undead by playing an offbrand version of candy crush? There are all-over the playstore/istore.

I just use them as an extreme example of a game's mechanic that is extremely far removed from the game. This destroys any chance of being immersed in such a game, even though it tells an epic fantasy story.
But because the mechanic doesn't match the story, it is just not working in any way.

If you have a dissonance between the game mechanic and the ingame story, especially in RPGs, it brakes the game.

That is my argument. You were very aggressive saying, that I dont want game elements, which is just not true.
I just want game elements that serve the intent and the feel of the game.

I don't want Candy Crush meets Dragonfighting.

For me, player character abilities, that, without an ingame explanation change the ingame world are game breaking, because they create a dissonance between the ingame fiction and the rules.

And it is the DMs job to adjucate and use the rules of the game in a way, that it creates the least amount of dissonance.

If you now also let players create ingame reality outside of their character by removing the adjucation aspect of the DM, that can break the game fast. D&D 5e is not really made for that.

 

[mamba]

It applies to most other mundane skills the same way. The guy who is really good at sneaking, balancing, intimidating, deceiving, etc.

I am not opposed to the taunt in principle, I am just not seeing the connection to a good fighter (and even then I do not object to the fighter having the ability)

 

[M_Natas]

I'm not looking to play a game where fighters have the ability to supernaturally influence reality. I am looking to play and run games (sometimes) where fighters can be just that damn good at provoking people. Insisting I'm doing the former when I'm really doing the latter is messed up. It doesn't have to appeal to you, but there is no need to blatantly misrepresent what's happening here.

But you can be good at provoking people. Just give your fighter 20 charisma and proficiency/expertise (by feat) in ... performance, I would say.

Now at the table you say "I wanna taunt that thug over there so he attacks me", and the DM will say "of course. Roll me a charisma check."
"Can I use performance?"
"Of course!"
You roll, the DM will adjucate appropriately taking your roll and the whole situation into account.