D&D (2024) Wizard (Playtest 7)

[Yaarel]

One of my longstanding complaints about the entire illusionist archetype comes down to, "why are you wasting time creating pretend spells when real spells exist" and "if it's possible to conjure a horde of pixies out of thin air with one spell, why would anyone disbelieve you creating an illusion of a pixie horde?" (and yet, the NPC's seem to do it every time, lol). Even other game designers have noted this, AD&D Illusionists eventually learned real spells at their top spell levels so they had some real magic to use in case everyone figured out they were an illusionist and disbelieved everything, and the Earthdawn Illusionist similarly had a few spells with real effects to mess with people who had a similar thought process.

I mean, sure, in theory, you could fool people by disguising low level illusion spells as higher level real spells, but I've never seen that work out well in live play, only in stories about awesome illusionist characters, lol.

Illusion magic is "real".

Note a "phantasm" is a strictly subjective phenomenon that only exists in the mind of the target, and is moreso a manipulation of the targets senses.

However, an illusion is normally an objective fact: a phenomenon that can be encountered by any observer.

Some illusions are manipulations of light (images) or vibrations (sounds), but can also be tangible (force).

Think of illusions as a Star Trek holodeck.

Illusion magic is the alteration of reality. It is a reality.

 

[James Gasik]

Illusion magic is "real".

Note a "phantasm" is a strictly subjective phenomenon that only exists in the mind of the target, and is moreso a manipulation of the targets senses.

However, an illusion is normally an objective fact: a phenomenon that can be encountered by any observer.

Some illusions are manipulations of light (images) or vibrations (sounds), but can also be tangible (force).

Think of illusions as a Star Trek holodeck.

Illusion magic is the alteration of reality. It is a reality.

An illusion of a wall of fire is decidedly less, tangible, if you prefer, than the real thing.

 

[Yaarel]

An illusion of a wall of fire is decidedly less, tangible, if you prefer, than the real thing.

Right. But the art of illusion is the ability to create anything − to manifest anything the mind can imagine.

The art of evocation is pretty much − more damage.

 

[Kalmi]

One of my longstanding complaints about the entire illusionist archetype comes down to, "why are you wasting time creating pretend spells when real spells exist" and "if it's possible to conjure a horde of pixies out of thin air with one spell, why would anyone disbelieve you creating an illusion of a pixie horde?" (and yet, the NPC's seem to do it every time, lol). Even other game designers have noted this, AD&D Illusionists eventually learned real spells at their top spell levels so they had some real magic to use in case everyone figured out they were an illusionist and disbelieved everything, and the Earthdawn Illusionist similarly had a few spells with real effects to mess with people who had a similar thought process.

I mean, sure, in theory, you could fool people by disguising low level illusion spells as higher level real spells, but I've never seen that work out well in live play, only in stories about awesome illusionist characters, lol.

This is one reason why, in the magic system I'm working on, "Illusion" magic is actually the manipulation of light and shadows, among other things. This also thematically ties it to concepts like navigation, long-range communication, and magical seals and locks; i.e. you can see secret, invisible paths that others can't, or create hidden paths yourself, you can use your power to carry invisible messages, and you can see and create arcane bindings over objects and places.

 

[Yaarel]

I view the Wish spell as the ultimate illusion spell − the subjective intention becomes the objective reality.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

There is an unofficial data scrape of the DnDBeyond character sheets, with more recent data points, including frequency of subclasses.

I mean, if you're going to rely on for an argument, it would only be fair for you to link to it. Could you link to it?

 

[Zubatcarteira]

Which statistics or what's popular? The key thing about wizard is that with the sole exception of Evoker nothing sticks as a subclass. This was released by D&D Beyond in 2019
View attachment 294505

Meanwhile this was D&D Beyond in 2020

View attachment 294506

So ... yeah. I have no idea what is going on with the wizard numbers without more data access than I have.

The thing is that I also want Illusion taken away from the wizards (or at least doubled down on for one of the other casters) for the simple reason that wizards by definition can learn any spell, and so you can't have a specialist illusionist who has to rely on illusions and bluff. There's always the possibility of learning fireball for a wizard (level permitting).

I'd imagine a big part of it is that Evoker is the one you can get for free on Beyond without having access to any books. which I think is the same for Champion, Open Hand, Fiend, Thief, etc. All the ones at the top, from what I can tell.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

Actually, there's one exception, they give the Land Druid for free, but Moon is the most used, although the gap is smaller than the others.

 

[Neonchameleon]

One of my longstanding complaints about the entire illusionist archetype comes down to, "why are you wasting time creating pretend spells when real spells exist" and "if it's possible to conjure a horde of pixies out of thin air with one spell, why would anyone disbelieve you creating an illusion of a pixie horde?" (and yet, the NPC's seem to do it every time, lol). Even other game designers have noted this, AD&D Illusionists eventually learned real spells at their top spell levels so they had some real magic to use in case everyone figured out they were an illusionist and disbelieved everything, and the Earthdawn Illusionist similarly had a few spells with real effects to mess with people who had a similar thought process.

I mean, sure, in theory, you could fool people by disguising low level illusion spells as higher level real spells, but I've never seen that work out well in live play, only in stories about awesome illusionist characters, lol.

I know I've got away with that one in real play in limited doses. But one of the keys to good illusions is that it's not what you don't know that will kill you but what you know that isn't so. One of the simplest uses for Silent Image is the illusionary door. The PCs are exploring and hear that there's a patrol coming. So they hide in the room with the door opened with the illusionist having put up an image of the way the door looked when it was closed. Nothing to make the NPCs suspect because everything looked normal - but the PCs all knew it was an illusion (the neon letters on the inside saying "This is an illusion" helped) so disbelieved it. Quick and simple ambush where an illusion was far more effective than creating a door would have been. One-way visibility and complete intangibility is a huge advantage.

Why do they exist from an in-universe perspective? Simple. Entertainers. Some types of bard and bard adjacent PCs can spam illusions to provide vfx and backing tracks for a better show.

Evoker and Diviner are the ones I have seen the most.

I've seen a lot of Diviners but can't recall a single diviner in D&D. What I mean by that is a lot of mages choose the Diviner subclass, but they are picking it because it's one of the most powerful subclasses. In terms of actual play diviner, war mage, and even abjurer and necromancer are in my experience played as pretty generic mages with an extra trick or two. Evokers might be slightly different to the rest, but everyone else except a few bladesingers are basically utility mages.

 

[Kobold Stew]

one of the keys to good illusions is that it's not what you don't know that will kill you but what you know that isn't so. One of the simplest uses for Silent Image is the illusionary door. The PCs are exploring and hear that there's a patrol coming. So they hide in the room with the door opened with the illusionist having put up an image of the way the door looked when it was closed. Nothing to make the NPCs suspect because everything looked normal - but the PCs all knew it was an illusion (the neon letters on the inside saying "This is an illusion" helped) so disbelieved it. Quick and simple ambush where an illusion was far more effective than creating a door would have been. One-way visibility and complete intangibility is a huge advantage.

See? This is a great example, and a clear use for silent image.
What isn't clear is how (and if) Malleable Illusions makes it better or different in any way. I don't think it does, RAW.

For better or worse, the language of "disbelieving" isn't part of 5e. You NEED to spend an action and win an opposed check (against a DC that every spellcaster is incentivized to max out), even if you are strongly inclined to believe it is an illusion

I do think that there's a real value in a passive investigation score, so that some characters instantly see though illusions without an action. It's intimated in the PHB, but never carried through. More than anything, I think this tightens up illusion magic. With that, then Malleable Illusion can give disadvantage (-5) to that check. Which makes it a really valuable investment.

Other questions:
A. Can I use Minor Illusion to create partial cover for an archer? Normally, yes. But what if it gets created mid-combat in front of everyone? RAW, you still can -- even if you see it being formed, you need to spend an action to get see through it. Now a DM might give advantage on the check, but there's no guidance, and it still burns an attacker's turn (or else they just accept that the archer has cover).

B. Does each individual in a group have to "disbelieve"? RAW, yes. What if one does so, and tells the others. Do they automatically see through it? Some would say yes. RAW says no. Again, this would be a reason to have a passive investigation score -- being told an illusion is there gives you (passive) advantage. And the characters who dump intelligence just can't see the sailboat (Mallrats reference).

C. And what range does examination work at? Do you need to physically interact with it? RAW, no. But at the same time, I'd like to think that being further than 30' (say) makes it harder to see through an illusion.

As I've said elsewhere, a half page of guidance could clear all illusion magic, and make it somethign that rewards creativity but leads to predictable responses from a DM, which simply isn't the case right now.