D&D General The Crab Bucket Fallacy

[Neonchameleon]

That it's not spells, really. That the Aberrant and GOO are passing as Psion, when they are just another caster is my problem.

So ... a psion then. My first game was GURPS where the psionic system is genuinely different from the magic system. Meanwhile the Psion class has always been a spellcaster, whether in 2e, 3.0, or 3.5. Always casting spells that were almost indistinguishable from wizard spells in both formatting and effect. These spells were so clearly and obviously just wizard-style spells with a splash of paint that they often used to literally reference the wizard spell.

The only actual differences between psion spells and wizard spells conceptually was that psions could upcast (now a thing for all casters) and Psions used spell points that were fungible between levels (as aberrant minds can, unlike any other caster).

Meanwhile the Soulknife is actually a psychic subclass that doesn't use what are both mechanically and thematically spells.

If I give a Fighter subclass the following.

Stand and Fight!
As Healing Word proficiency/per day.

That's going to cover your minimum?

Explicitly not. But it would be closer than anything we have now.

 

[Tony Vargas]

So ... a psion then. My first game was GURPS where the psionic system is genuinely different from the magic system. Meanwhile the Psion class has always been a spellcaster, whether in 2e, 3.0, or 3.5.

0e and 1e psionics weren't a class, per se, they were powers you randomly gained, in an optional apendix in the AD&D PH, in Eldritch Wizardry Supplement III in 0e. Psionic combat which was like Freudian Analysis with a buzzsaw, then there were Disciplines & Sciences, some of which did things similar to spells, most of which had very scientific sounding names, and none of which were memorized, using a large reserve of points (also used in lethal Freudian Analysis).
No mention of the Far Realms, but they certainly seemed like they came from another reality where you might meet the odd Bug-eyed Monster....

The 2e Psionicist was a class in it's own handbook, with an expansive system, distinct from spells (pretty similar to 1e, really, but just moar)

In 3e the Psion, and other classes, got more spell like powers, I suppose, but you also got the choice of magic or different (3.5?).

In 4e, psionics were the first classes to deviate significantly from AEDU, using power points to augment at-wills instead of getting encounters. In 4e, each Source was 'different,' really, so I guess you could decide if you thought of it as magic, and the DM decide what others thought. There weren't many litmus tests for magic-ness in 4e, no anti-magic shells or zones, for instance... but there was Dispel Magic, only Wizards got it, and it worked on Zones and Conjurations. Pretty sure psionics had Zones & Conjurations both...(yep, 65 zones, 23 conjurations)

 

[Neonchameleon]

I will say this. If Psionic Sorcery was 'always on' and didnt require a Sorcery Point, it would go a long way.

I think you misunderstand the Aberrant Mind and Psionic Sorcery.

Psionic Sorcery​

Beginning at 6th level, when you cast any spell of 1st level or higher from your Psionic Spells feature, you can cast it by expending a spell slot as normal or by spending a number of sorcery points equal to the spell's level. If you cast the spell using sorcery points, it requires no verbal or somatic components, and it requires no material components, unless they are consumed by the spell.​

Psionic Sorcery doesn't require a sorcery point to use. It requires you to cast spells by using sorcery points. You can turn spell slots into sorcery points at the rate of 1 spell level for 1 sorcery point. So at the start of the day you can literally dump all your spell slots into sorcery points - and once they are sorcery points you can use them for psionic sorcery as if they were spell points (as well as for metamagic) and you will get the benefits of psionic sorcery if you do. And this is why I call it a spell point caster - you can turn all your slots into sorcery points and then use them to cast spells losslessly.

What this will not let you do is cast e.g. Shield as an act of psionic sorcery because it doesn't come from Psionic Spells but is instead an orthodox spell you are forcing your psionic energy to fuel. But (assuming sorcery points remaining) it is free to cast Detect Thoughts or Telekinesis out of your sorcery point pool.

Edit: Where this misses is if you've picked up divination, enchantment, illusion, or other psychic spells from your base spells rather than just through the Aberrant Mind's extra spells or trading them you should be able to cast them with Psionic Sorcery as well. But that's a more minor quibble.

 

[Minigiant]

Every spell is just consistent gaslighting.

What do you think Truenamers are?

 

[Scribe]

I think you misunderstand the Aberrant Mind and Psionic Sorcery.

You are 100% correct.

Now, move all this to Level 1, and I'm 100% more fine with this being a 'Psion'.

 

[Minigiant]

That would indeed be preferable. Sorcerer is superfluous as now everyone has neo-Vancian casting and the warlock chassis fits the concept better. So please, get rid of the sorcerer and broaden the warlock to cover sorcerer fluff. (I already did this for my own game.)

That is because everything that was not one of the floor classic old school archetypes was overall treated like afterthoughts in the PHB.

• Barbarians
• Bards
• Druids
• monks
• Rangers
• warlocks
• sorcerers
• dragonborn
• half orc
• gnome
• tiefling
• dual welding
• feats
• multiclassing
• Almost every variant rule in the DMG

All half-butted.

 

[Neonchameleon]

You are 100% correct.

Now, move all this to Level 1, and I'm 100% more fine with this being a 'Psion'.

Fair enough; the way it works isn't as obvious as it should be. And I fully sympathise with the argument that level 6 is very late for that to kick in.

 

[Neonchameleon]

That would indeed be preferable. Sorcerer is superfluous as now everyone has neo-Vancian casting and the warlock chassis fits the concept better. So please, get rid of the sorcerer and broaden the warlock to cover sorcerer fluff. (I already did this for my own game.)

Nah. Wizard's the superflous one - with a bland collection of subclasses. They should be demoted to a sorcerer subclass - please get rid of them and broaden the sorcerer to cover wizard fluff.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Nah. Wizard's the superflous one - with a bland collection of subclasses. They should be demoted to a sorcerer subclass - please get rid of them and broaden the sorcerer to cover wizard fluff.

They indeed have boring subclasses, and at least one reason for that is that more interesting concepts get siloed into separate classes. But conceptually wizard (learns magical formulas) is quite distinct from sorcerer (empowered with innate magic at birth by a magical ancestor) and warlock (empowered with innate magic at some point by a magical patron,) which are basically the same thing. But the wizard could get some leftover from this merger, hopefully making it more interesting.

 

[Neonchameleon]

They indeed have boring subclasses, and at least one reason for that is that more interesting concepts get siloed into separate classes. But conceptually wizard (learns magical formulas) is quite distinct from sorcerer (empowered with innate magic at birth by a magical ancestor)

Yes, the Pathfinder sorcerer is conceptually bland. But Pathfinder is a different game from D&D 5e. The only 5e sorcerer subclass that is explicitly to do with ancestry is the Draconic Bloodline. Meanwhile the Aberrant Mind (as I have that tab open) is "An alien influence has wrapped its tendrils around your mind, giving you psionic power. You can now touch other minds with that power and alter the world around you by using it to control the magical energy of the multiverse." And the Storm Soul (unlike the Aberrant Mind) does allow for ancestors as an option but it is not the default one. "Your innate magic comes from the power of elemental air. Many with this power can trace their magic back to a near-death experience caused by the Great Rain, but perhaps you were born during a howling gale so powerful that folk still tell stories of it, or your lineage might include the influence of potent air creatures such as vaati or djinn. "

Even in the PHB the it was only the Dragon sorcerer that was to do with magical ancestors. The Wild Soul was "Your innate magic comes from the wild forces of chaos that underlie the order of creation. You might have endured exposure to some form of raw magic, perhaps through a planar portal leading to Limbo, the Elemental Planes, or the mysterious Far Realm. Perhaps you were blessed by a powerful fey creature or marked by a demon. Or your magic could be a fluke of your birth, with no apparent cause or reason." There is not one single mention of your lineage in one of the two subclasses.

There is almost nothing in the wizard's fluff that would put it out of line with being a 5e sorcerer subclass. The one that studies books and tomes. And ironically would be made more interesting by the contrast to the other sorcerer subclasses.

and warlock (empowered with innate magic at some point by a magical patron,) which are basically the same thing. But the wizard could get some leftover from this merger, hopefully making it more interesting.

No they aren't. Warlock is closer to cleric.

Edit: And as for the wizard having the boring subclasses - no that's not because things are siloed away. It's because they (a) got there first and (b) insist on having the ability to cast all spells, and knowing ludicrous numbers of them, eating the power budget.