Unpopular opinions go here

[Hussar]

Rules light is a pretty subjective term. I think there are roughly : heavy, medium, light and minimalist RPGs. I would say 1-2 page RPGs is more on minimalist side. If we are just talking core rules, not rest of book (spells, monsters, etc), I think like 2-8 pages rules is rules light. But page count alone doesn’t really capture it.

For D&D early versions of basic strike me as rules light (not rules streamlined but rules light). AD&D I would say is not rules light, but certainly lighter than most of the post TSR editions

Rules light is neither good or bad IMO. I personally tend to fluctuate between rules light and rules medium

Simulation is a weird term. I don’t use it myself. Can’t stand the term but often find my style gets labeled that for whatever reason. It seems in past couple of years some gamers have actively embraced the label (but I think they use it differently than I would)

No.

Early versions of D&D are rules absent. That's not rules light. When you have no rules for covering basic actions that a game could reasonably be expected to see, that's not rules light. So, can you character swim wasn't answered in older versions of D&D. That's not rules light. That just pushes the rules over to the DM who then decides on an ad hoc basis what rule that table will use from that point onward, thus increasing the rules load. In a rules light game, like, say, Savage Worlds, you have one rule - can you beat a 4? The DM (and possibly the rules) picks a die size for you to use depending on difficulty and you make your roll. Doesn't matter what you're trying - swimming or flying an airplane. One rule.

That's rules light.

The problem is, you're simply comparing versions of D&D and saying, "well, this version of D&D has less rules that that version, so it must be rules light". That's not what it means. Having less rules doesn't necessarily make a game rules light.

But, that's where it gets into all the edition warring nonsense and shenanigans. People simply massage the definition into something that gives them the results they want, and then they proclaim that to be a fact. Rules light is not subjective. It's defined by its center, not by its edges. But, people will simply play ridiculous semantic games in order to promote their personal favorite edition.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I would like to note that many arguments for spells not making a game rule heavy can also apply to 4E powers.

Which is why I don't agree with those arguments.

 

[overgeeked]

Unpopular opinion. “The DM can fix it at the table” is not the awesome defense people seem to think it is. It admits that yes, the design is bad and that yes, the game does need fixing by the punter who is stuck running the thing. In no way is it saying the design is good actually.

 

[Hussar]

I get that but what I mean is I am not counting each individual spell in that case as something that weighs down the system more. If each spell is relatively simple to read and deploy, what matters to me in terms of system weight is how complex the actual casting system is

Simple test:

In 5e D&D, which is more complex to play - a 10th level wizard or a 10th level rogue? Which one would take up more page count if you actually wrote down the full text of every option that character has?

On what planet is D&D a rules light game? Even in 1e, if you took that 10th level wizard, wrote down every rules bit applicable to casting - spells know, chance to learn, combat rules for casting in combat, plus the actual text of the spellbook, that character sheet would be fifteen pages long.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I get that but what I mean is I am not counting each individual spell in that case as something that weighs down the system more. If each spell is relatively simple to read and deploy, what matters to me in terms of system weight is how complex the actual casting system is

That's what I said, though; that only works if spells are largely written to a common metric and do not vary much in things such as range, duration, casting time and so on, nor have particularly complex effects. That doesn't describe many magic systems. Even most effect-based systems (which I think are much easier to remember than exception based ones) usually have more variance than that.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I would like to note that many arguments for spells not making a game rule heavy can also apply to 4E powers.

Sure. And have the same problems from my point of view; every one is a special case. That's just not a special 4e problem; its always been the case with D&D spells (mixed, early enough on with a giant dose of vagueness) and as soon as feats arrived, applied to them too. (And as far as that goes, magic items).

 

[Emberashh]

That just pushes the rules over to the DM who then decides on an ad hoc basis what rule that table will use from that point onward, thus increasing the rules load. In a rules light game, like, say, Savage Worlds, you have one rule - can you beat a 4? The DM (and possibly the rules) picks a die size for you to use depending on difficulty and you make your roll. Doesn't matter what you're trying - swimming or flying an airplane. One rule.

DMs can pick one of 6 DCs out of a Chart and an Attribute and have the player roll a d20 to beat/match the number.

No need for anything else, doesn't matter what it is thats being rolled for.

Now lets hear why thats totally different.

 

[Bedrockgames]

The problem is, you're simply comparing versions of D&D and saying, "well, this version of D&D has less rules that that version, so it must be rules light". That's not what it means. Having less rules doesn't necessarily make a game rules light.

That isn’t what I am doing Hussar. D&D isn’t the primary game I play. But of D&D the white box and Moldvay appeal strongly to my rules light sensibilities. You and I aren’t going to agree on whether it achieves it or how, as we clearly have very different ideas about game systems, what they ought to cover and things like rulings. But I can save us both time by saying we just aren’t going to see eye to eye here

 

[Bedrockgames]

Simple test:

In 5e D&D, which is more complex to play - a 10th level wizard or a 10th level rogue? Which one would take up more page count if you actually wrote down the full text of every option that character has?

On what planet is D&D a rules light game? Even in 1e, if you took that 10th level wizard, wrote down every rules bit applicable to casting - spells know, chance to learn, combat rules for casting in combat, plus the actual text of the spellbook, that character sheet would be fifteen pages long.

I never said D&D is rules light. And never suggested 5E is rules light: I don’t play 5E. I even said Ad&D isn’t rules light. I only said the Moldvay and white box versions of D&D are rules light in my opinion, and that AD&D is lighter than WOTC era D&D (in particular 3E but also 4E)

 

[Emberashh]

Unpopular opinion. “The DM can fix it at the table” is not the awesome defense people seem to think it is. It admits that yes, the design is bad and that yes, the game does need fixing by the punter who is stuck running the thing. In no way is it saying the design is good actually.

It isn't always being used as a defense, though. Some care about the complainer getting past their squabble and back into having the fun. From that perspective, rulings are a valid solution and a simple one at that. It takes dramattically less effort to get past an issue with a ruling than it is to go on the internet and yell at clouds.

Issue comes when people frame their complaints as cries for help when they should just complain straight up and make it clear they don't want a solution.

A lot of people in this hobby have a tendency to frame complaints as though they expect someone to come out of the blue with a page number that fixes the problem, even though they already know that isn't going to happen. And then they start arguing when people respond to the cry for help with help when thats not what they actually wanted.