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D&D General If faith in yourself is enough to get power, do we need Wizards and Warlocks etc?

What's the issue? Mechanics are the skeleton to allow for the game to be played. The "skin," story, fantasy (however you may want to call it) is completely separate.

To some people this stance just is unacceptable. I feel the mechanics and fiction should be closely aligned, and one reason to have rules at all is that they tell us something about the fiction they represent. I get that others don't feel this way, but like I've said on multiple threads, this difference in thinking is a source of a lot of disagreements here.
 

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Hawk Diesel

Adventurer
To some people this stance just is unacceptable. I feel the mechanics and fiction should be closely aligned, and one reason to have rules at all is that they tell us something about the fiction they represent. I get that others don't feel this way, but like I've said on multiple threads, this difference in thinking is a source of a lot of disagreements here.
Very true, but I think there is plenty of room for both sides. People have their preferences, and that's what makes the game awesome and so widely appealing. The problem comes when people claim there is a right or even "more correct" way to play the game and prescribe what is acceptable.

Coming to an understanding around what different people enjoy is pretty dope, even if one doesn't agree or like how others may do it. But judging a person for their preference is weird.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
It think there are aspects of every game that are done to make the game easily to play or more inclusive which logically within its world building and simulation make no sense or wouldn't work the way the players are playing.

Clerics who lack the need of gods is a fun idea.

Brother Burt the cleric of Bananaism is a funny idea. But within D&D world building, actually playing Burt the way he's have to be played to make sense of clerics, warlocks, and wizards would be beyond annoying and borderline impossible to keep straight for 99.9999% of fans.

This creates a "PC Privilege" where Players are allowed or expected to play some PCs actually wrong in order to keep the game fun.
 


Reynard

Legend
Supporter
"Fanaticism" seems like a weird requirement. The requirement would be "this god decides you make a useful vessel/tool in the world and therefore grants you spells." MOST of the time they are likely to pick a devout follower but gods being ineffible and all, one might choose a less than perfect member of the flock to fit into a much larger plan. The PHB text at the opening of the cleric chapter is explicit: clerics serve gods and are conduits for the divine power of those gods.
 

GMMichael

Guide of Modos
Because faith isn't something that you snap your fingers and appears. Very few people have that level of faith in anything, even themselves.
Since Jack Handy is already in the thread, I'll just drop by to say that there's tons of faith out there, in the Deendee world, just not where you might expect.

The pious put their faith in the gods, but those who seem less faithful have faith in less obvious things: sunrises, lords, and even this subtle guy, routine.
 

Voadam

Legend
As far back as 3e, clerics could gain power from a philosophy rather than a deity. Might even go back earlier, since I played a 2e specialty cleric that followed a philosophy (maybe my DM was just being nice, I don't recall).

In 2e you could get 1st and 2nd level spells on faith alone. After that you needed a deity.
Correction, it goes back to 1e where you get first and second level spells from education, training, and experience, not from them being granted by their deity or its servants or by their faith.

Each cleric must have his or her own deity, so when a new player opts to become a cleric (including a druid), you must inform them as to which deities exist in your campaign milieu and allow the individual to select which one of them he or she will serve. This will not necessarily establish the alignment of the cleric, so at the same time the cleric player character should also state his or her ethos (not necessarily to the other players). It is then assumed that prior to becoming a first level cleric, the player character received a course of instruction, served a novitiate, and has thoroughly read and committed to memory the teachings of and prayers to his or her chosen deity, so that the character is dedicated to this deity and is able to perform as a cleric thereof. It is this background which enables the cleric character to use first level spells.
Furthermore, continued service and activity on behalf of the player character’s deity empower him or her to use second level spells as well, but thereafter another agency must be called upon.
Cleric spells of third, fourth, and fifth level are obtained through the aid of supernatural servants of the cleric’s deity. That is, through meditation and prayer, the cleric’s needs are understood and the proper spells are given to him or her by the minions of the deity.
Cleric spells of sixth and seventh level are granted by direct communication from the deity itself. There is no intermediary in this case, and the cleric has a direct channel to the deity, from whom he or she receives the special power to cast the given spells of these levels.
Lesser clerics, then, draw only upon their education, training, and experience to gain spells, just as higher clerics do when they renew their first and second level spells. In order to gain third, fourth, and fifth level spells, however, higher clerics must reach intermediaries of their respective deities in order to have these powers bestowed upon them from the plane of their deity. When clerics become very great, they must petition their deity personally in order to receive the powerful words which enable the casting of sixth and seventh level cleric spells. It is obvious, therefore, that clerics wishing to use third or higher level spells must be in good standing.

So 4th level clerics who picked a god and went through the education but have no faith and are not in good standing with their god can still cast their full complement of spells.

In 2e Complete Book of Priests you have full on non-deity philosophies and forces that spellcasting priests can follow. Legends and Lore has specialty priests for followers of Confucius and Lao Tzu.

"Priests dedicated to Lao Tzu or Taoism must preside over a wide range of ceremonies."
 
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TwoSix

"Diegetics", by L. Ron Gygax
"Fanaticism" seems like a weird requirement. The requirement would be "this god decides you make a useful vessel/tool in the world and therefore grants you spells." MOST of the time they are likely to pick a devout follower but gods being ineffible and all, one might choose a less than perfect member of the flock to fit into a much larger plan. The PHB text at the opening of the cleric chapter is explicit: clerics serve gods and are conduits for the divine power of those gods.
Really, any of the text around clerics in the core books are going to have a lot of caveats due to setting building, as mucking around with gods and cosmology is generally one of the first things that homebrewers do.

They write the books knowing that probably 90% of tables use the classic portfolio of gods/henotheism/monolatry setup, but they're certainly aren't going to REQUIRE polytheism in the world building. If you want to run a monotheistic or atheistic game, they aren't going to say "Well, no clerics, then". It's up to the worldbuilding DM to sort out any inconsistencies that might arise.
 

Voadam

Legend
The PHB text at the opening of the cleric chapter is explicit: clerics serve gods and are conduits for the divine power of those gods.
Yes, and the PH also has the Eberron non-god philosophies with suggested clerical domains and the DMG saying different ways to set things up.

5e is not entirely coherent on this point. :)
 

M_Natas

Hero
What's the issue? Mechanics are the skeleton to allow for the game to be played. The "skin," story, fantasy (however you may want to call it) is completely separate. There is nothing inherent about the mechanics of a wizard that make them a wizard, only that we've agreed it is a wizard. There is nothing within the mechanics of the cleric class that require devotion to a deity, or devotion of any kind. That's the great thing about D&D and RPGs, they are only limited by a person's imagination. If I want to play a Death Domain Cleric or a Circle of Spores Druid and call them a Necromancer, what's the problem?

Maybe I'm misinterpreting your point.
My point is, a game needs a skeleton and flesh and skin. You can't build good mechanics that are completely separate from the game world they are supposedly represent.
And in some ways Wizards connects the default D&D World and mechanics strongly (Warlock, Sorcerer) and in others it is pretty loose (Paladin, Clerics who believe in themselves).
I personally don't like those to loose connections.
Personally, I think a unicorn patron would be pretty sweet.
It's already there with the celestial patron, where they name the Unicorn as one option.
I mean, I'm not against that, it was just one example of a disconnect. Also the Warlock... is a special case. I think WotC isn't using his full potential.
 

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