D&D 5E The Fighter/Martial Problem (In Depth Ponderings)

My diagnosis of the fighter is a little different; I believe the main problem with the fighter class is it's try to satisfy at least two very different character fantasies - and each of those could support one or more classes by themselves.

The first is the more classic Broadly Competent Fighting-Man (or -Woman). This is the fantasy novel hero like Conan, Aragorn, Sam Vimes, Mat Cauthon (unless you consider him a rogue with a fighter dip) etc. They're good with weapons - all weapons. They can pick up a sword, bow, spear, axe, mace or any other weapon known in the setting and go mess up some mooks. They may have a favorite, but the favorite is an individual weapon that means something to them personally (and may be magical).

They probably can't cast spells, but they can use magic in other ways like magical items (not just weapons), simple rituals, or maybe they just know a bit about magic so they can think of counters to it.

They're also broadly competent at other warrior stuff - they can survive in the wilds, track, tame horses, search for traps and disarm them, lead troops, organize a barricade, etc. Soldier stuff or similar, but they actually have quite a few skills. They may even have a few skills that sit outside the normal warrior/adventurer list, but not too many.

The champion looks like it could do this, but you never get the skills for it.

The second type is the specialized weapon master. They have a single type of weapon that they want to truly master - they might be proficient in other weapons, but they'd rather use a regular sword than a magic axe if they're a sword-master. They could pick any weapon but swords and fists are the most popular in fiction. For a vanilla example of this trope, look at Kirigaya Kazuto from Sword Art Online, though I would add in Lan Mandragoran offhand. It's more popular in anime than western fiction, but lots of players have watched a lot more anime than they've read pulp fantasy.

These characters may or may not use magic, but if they do they use a lot. 4e swordmage levels of magic use, if they go this route. Others disdain magic for pure sword skill, but the skill they achieve matches what magic could give them.

They generally don't have many skills beyond weapon skills - maybe something related like calligraphy or military science, but no more than one or two.

The battlemaster was supposed to handle this, but falls extremely flat when used that way.

I think in a DnD-like game, you cannot put these concepts into the same class and make it work (without majorly changing the role of classes generally). The first needs solid weapon proficienies, lots of skills, and good defenses in or out of armor. The latter needs a list of specialized techniques to learn, significant bonuses to specific chosen weapons, and a resource pool to fuel their bursts of awesomeness.

The first could also be a nonmagical ranger. You could split the latter into magic and non-magic classes (ie sword-saint and swordmage) to allow for different resource pools, but the two will play out in similar ways.

Leadership options (a la marshall/warlord/cavalier/PDK) could also be a thing - but I'm not convinced it makes for a good class in a game with 5e's chassis. I think I'd rather add a "warfare" skill and some specific uses like "motivate an ally," maybe with feats, and let people add that to whatever character they already have.
It’s not clear how those 2 concepts could fit in the same game. The dedicated swordsman has to be clearly better than the general fighter or the fiction doesn’t make since. But a few extra skills and stuff isn’t going to compensate for being clearly worse at fighting than the other.
 

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It’s not clear how those 2 concepts could fit in the same game. The dedicated swordsman has to be clearly better than the general fighter or the fiction doesn’t make since. But a few extra skills and stuff isn’t going to compensate for being clearly worse at fighting than the other.
The dedicated swordsman is also clearly inferior to the wizard who can learn 100 spells, but that hasn't stopped DnD from being the dominant game for 50 years.

I'm not saying it'd be easy to balance, but I'll admit "balanced" and "feels like DnD" are often opposing goals.
 

LEGOLAS IS A FIGHTER.
AN ELF FIGHTER!

Only Aragorn is a ranger in the fellowship.
Legolas conclusively does more than attack repeatedly. Apparently this is something that requires spellcasting to do in D&D.

Spellcasting like tracking foes moving overland, shooting a lot of arrows in rapid succession, covering one's tracks and avoiding detection using common woodcraft I learned in cub scouts.

Thus, ranger.
 

Tell me how to objectively and conclusively test this. Rebalancing alone won't prove anything unless you have a conclusive way to collect and analyze the data from the "test"
Exactly like I said, remove it for a good long while and thne maybe come around to asking people about it. Or not and just leave them out forever.

Let's not forget we did actually rebalance casters in 4E and most [inconclusive] evidence indicates that did not work well. So we already did try it, but don't have any good data from trying it. Trying it again without better MOPs that would be widely accepted is useless.
Yes. Wizards being balanced caused the tragedies that led to the VVT being canceled and for WotC to write the GSL. Also Psychic Robot.
 

That is not what that slide shows. It shows the Champion subclass specifically, not the fighter class as a whole. It also shows that more than half (54%) were satisfied with the Champion, which is objectively one of the two weakest fighter subclasses.

It does show the Ranger clas was very unpopular, but that was before the update in Tashas.

Further for the sake of this discussion it is important to note that Ranger is a caster and that with the Tasha's updates it is probably the most powerful class that gets martial weapons proficiency as a class. If you are considering all 3 pillars I think it is pretty clearly the most powerful martial. If you consider combat only the Paladin may be in the same range.
Isn't Champion one of the most popular subclasses?
 

The dedicated swordsman is also clearly inferior to the wizard who can learn 100 spells, but that hasn't stopped DnD from being the dominant game for 50 years.

I'm not saying it'd be easy to balance, but I'll admit "balanced" and "feels like DnD" are often opposing goals.
Sure. But the fighter and wizard don’t cause an obvious imbalance at the conceptual level. The 2 classes you proposed do.
 





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