D&D 5E The Fighter/Martial Problem (In Depth Ponderings)

[FrogReaver]

Exactly. Never once does the video call out anything that isn't a spell. So if there is a high-level non-spell ability that causes problems in high level play, no example was given of one.

Looking over what "martial" characters get at high levels, I see things that can cause more damage to be dealt, or adds more survivability, but nothing that could circumvent parts of an adventure or even campaign.

IMO, at some point the party with high level casters simply goes on different adventures than a party of high level martials. At the end of the day those adventures should be mostly equally challenging for the given group going through them.

Yes - if casters were placed in the non caster only adventure they would have too easy of a time. But by high level a dm should be a decent gauge of his pc’s abilities and thus can easily avoid doing that.

Note - I’m not talking about combat difficulty. Though the same thing applies.

 

[Minigiant]

Playing a perfectly balanced party of 4 Wizards does not change ANY of the points made in the video. Everything he points to as a problem is still a problem even if there are all Wizards and no fighters in the game and thus no Wizard-Fighter balance concerns.

Same on the flip side, most of the things he points out as problems are still problems in a high-level game of 4 fighters with no other classes and no fighter-caster balance problems.

#1 Encounter balance. Still a problem with fighters but less so. He only mentions spells. Fighters just
#2 High level spells and liabilities. Not a problem with fighters. Fighter don't have high level spells. He never mentions any high level not-spells.
#3 Too easy for Players/Too Hard for DM. Not a problem with fighters. the problem is spells and th lack of support dealing with them.
#4 Not enough content. Not a problem with fighters. You can still challenge fighter with low level adventures with boosted numbers of foes. Not so much with casters as the game changes
#5 Low character death. Not a problem with fighters. Literally spells are what keep PCs from dying. Cheap heals that don''t eat into offense and powerful high level spells that rez allies
#6 Combat slogs. Still a problem with fighters. WOTC designs HP sponges.
#7 Complex PC. Not a problem with fighters. High level Fighters are barely more complex than their mid level version. They are the same PC with bigger numbers.
#8 Complex Math. Still a problem with fighters but less so. You have to add up one more attack.
#9 Play new PC. Still a problem with fighters. But you could start at high level and recycle campaigns every 6-7 levels
#10 Logical story. Still a problem with fighters.. See #9

Really only 1, 6, 9 and 10 continue with an all fighter/Barb party. #8 if you add rogues/ paladins, and/or rangers.

 

[ECMO3]

so, i just watched that entire segment (it's pretty lengthy, it goes on until 7:15 in the video)...and while yes, the title of that segment does include abilities...he only actually talks about spells.

And it is one of 10 things he talks about. The spells he uses are examples, he doesn't mention them in the context of balance between classes and uses them on both sides of the argument (the DM and the players).

- not primarily, anyway - but rather how such spells can outright negate parts of the game (from big/solo monsters to entire sessions/arcs). i can't think of a single non-spell ability off the top of my head that can even attempt to do such a thing...except maybe, like, stunning strike?

I would not put stunning strike or portent into this category. I would put all of the following into this catagory, some of which you get at low level: Quivering Palm (because there is no hp limit), Mastery of Death (because it does not require a reaction), Touch of the Long Death (because of the amount of damage), Hypnotic Gaze (because it is permanent with no follow on save as long as the PC stays within 5 feet and uses his action), Vigilant Defender, Stroke of Luck, Rend Mind, Spell Thief (because you can eliminate spells you would get no save on), Fey Reinforcements (because you bypass concentration and synergy with beguiling twist), Psi-bolstered knack, Archdruid, Aura of Conquest, Command Undead (because there is no time limit), Divine Intervention

For some of these it is based on seeing in play, for others it is based on the description. I do agree that spells are the biggest problems here, but all of the things above are concerns at high levels as well.

 

[ECMO3]

#3 Too easy for Players/Too Hard for DM. Not a problem with fighters. the problem is spells and th lack of support dealing with them.t

Not true according to the video. He says nothing about class.

#4 Not enough content. Not a problem with fighters. You can still challenge fighter with low level adventures with boosted numbers of foes. Not so much with casters as the game changes

So you can challange fighters with existing content that does not exist?

The whole idea of existing content is it exists. You are not going to turn Waterdeep Dragon Heist into a 15-20th level adventure without completely redesigning it, even for a bunch of fighters.

Not enough content is not enough content period.

By the way this is not something that is factually true if you are willing to look outside WOTC.

#6 Combat slogs. Still a problem with fighters. WOTC designs HP sponges.

Actually a bigger problem with fighters

#7 Complex PC. Not a problem with fighters. High level Fighters are barely more complex than their mid level version. They are the same PC with bigger numbers.

Yes a huge problem with fighters. High level fighters have a ton of abuilities and unlike Wizards they are not mostly concentrated into spells with similar operational mechanics. This would be true if we did not have feats or fighter subclasses but high level fighters are very complex with things like multiple action surge uses, attacks multiple times, bonus action attacks because of a feature, multiple reactions.

The fighter abilities more so than the spells modify action economy itself.

#8 Complex Math. Still a problem with fighters but less so. You have to add up one more attack.

More so on fighters!

To start with on a fighter it is 3 more attacks as an action at 20th level and more even after that on many rounds due to other fighter and subclass features

Damaging spells are generally very straight forward. They don't generally have reroll 1s and 2s, and a +5 for strength and a +2 for this fighting style and -5 for sharpshooter with a +10 to damage and a +1d10 for my subclass ability, but only on the first attack of my turn, and then .......

Further, most of the spells high level wizards are casting are control spells that require no math at all .... and they are only doing it one time a turn generally.

#10 Logical story. Still a problem with fighters.. See #9

Really only 1, 6, 9 and 10 continue with an all fighter/Barb party. #8 if you add rogues/ paladins, and/or rangers.

No I disagree, all except most of 2 and arguably 5 exist in an all fighter party.

Moreover even if it was just 1, 6, 9 and 10, my point stands - what the video says is that playing 5E at high level is broken, regardless of class. Not that the imbalance between Wizards and fighters at high level is not fun.

 

[ECMO3]

IMO, at some point the party with high level casters simply goes on different adventures than a party of high level martials. At the end of the day those adventures should be mostly equally challenging for the given group going through them.

Every game I have played at high level so far included both, and I have played 2 campaigns to 20th level (one as a Zehntilar's Finest Fighter, one as a Bladesinger Wizard)

Yes - if casters were placed in the non caster only adventure they would have too easy of a time. But by high level a dm should be a decent gauge of his pc’s abilities and thus can easily avoid doing that.

This is a bit off, because most adventures are intended for a different number of PCs. If the game is "too easy" for my party of 4 casters it is not going to get more difficult by adding 2 fighters to the group.

Note - I’m not talking about combat difficulty. Though the same thing applies.

That is entirely dependant on the spells chosen. If you choose combat spells exclusively the non-combat part of the game is going to generally be more difficult for casters because they generally get fewer proficiencies or skill bonuses than non-casters (not true for Bard or a few Clerics, but generally true for the other full caster classes).

Here is the last 20th level character I played. She was badass, but out of combat she was WAY worse than our Soul Knife Rogue. With Psi-bolstered knack at games end he was even as good as her in the intelligence skills. The Paladin in the party was generally better than she was out of combat too:

D&D Beyond Character Sheet

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Part of that was her background and spell selection and with different spells I could have done better.

 

[Minigiant]

Not true according to the video. He says nothing about class.

H only mentions high level spells. Something fighter never have.

So you can challange fighters with existing content that does not exist?

The whole idea of existing content is it exists. You are not going to turn Waterdeep Dragon Heist into a 15-20th level adventure without completely redesigning it, even for a bunch of fighters.

Not enough content is not enough content period.

By the way this is not something that is factually true if you are willing to look outside WOTC.

Yes. Since fighter get no new features after level 9, due to bounded accuracy you can use low level adventures with double or triple the dudes.

Actually a bigger problem with fighters

A huge one. I agree. It's the big problem. Since fighter by default in class only increase in combat ability, poor HP/ACmath creates slogs.

Yes a huge problem with fighters. High level fighters have a ton of abuilities and unlike Wizards they are not mostly concentrated into spells with similar operational mechanics. This would be true if we did not have feats or fighter subclasses but high level fighters are very complex with things like multiple action surge uses, attacks multiple times, bonus action attacks because of a feature, multiple reactions.

The fighter abilities more so than the spells modify action economy itself.

No they don't.

Feats might be complex. But feats are not fighter class features.

After level 9, fighters get No New Class Features. They only get more uses or their the class features they already have or subclass features.

More so on fighters!

To start with on a fighter it is 3 more attacks as an action at 20th level and more even after that on many rounds due to other fighter and subclass features

Damaging spells are generally very straight forward. They don't generally have reroll 1s and 2s, and a +5 for strength and a +2 for this fighting style and -5 for sharpshooter with a +10 to damage and a +1d10 for my subclass ability, but only on the first attack of my turn, and then .......

Further, most of the spells high level wizards are casting are control spells that require no math at all .... and they are only doing it one time a turn generally.

There's no Epic 5e so 20th is the end of play.

From level 10 on, a fighter is doing the same things as his level 9 self. Just with 1 more use.

No I disagree, all except most of 2 and arguably 5 exist in an all fighter party.

Moreover even if it was just 1, 6, 9 and 10, my point stands - what the video says is that playing 5E at high level is broken, regardless of class. Not that the imbalance between Wizards and fighters at high level is not fun.

We can disagree.

But my point and almost everything DMlair states is due to either Casters changing the game at high level and WOTC not recognizing it and adjusting the martial, monster, and adventures to that change.

 

[ECMO3]

Yes. Since fighter get no new features after level 9, due to bounded accuracy you can use low level adventures with double or triple the dudes.

Every single class fighter gets new features at level 10, 15 and 18. Additionally features they have improve at level 11 13 17 and 20.

That does not count feats.

A huge one. I agree. It's the big problem. Since fighter by default in class only increase in combat ability, poor HP/ACmath creates slogs.

But no fighter in 5E is increases by class only.

Suggesting a fighter;s subclass abilities don't count is like saying a Wizard's spells don't count. Both spells and subclass are part of the base class chassis and you choose which options to select from a list (a much smaller number on a fighter)

It is disingenuous not to consider fighter subclasses when talking about the fighter.

No they don't.

Feats might be complex. But feats are not fighter class features.

After level 9, fighters get No New Class Features. They only get more uses or their the class features they already have or subclass features.

Things like Giants Might, Battlemaster Maneuvers, Vigilant defender, Arcane Shots etc are fighter features. They are things you can select if you play a fighter (as are feats for what it is worth).

They are every bit as much fighter features as spells are wizard class features. When you gain levels in fighter you get these features, just like a Wizard gets more spells when they gain levels.

There's no Epic 5e so 20th is the end of play.

From level 10 on, a fighter is doing the same things as his level 9 self. Just with 1 more use.

That is just not true. A 20th level Cavalier can do as many reactions as there are enemies on the battlefield, so many more than 1 more.

Also you are wrong about there being no epic 5E. Read the DMG page 230-232 and all of those things are available to fighters if they continue after level 20 and most of them are oriented towards martials.

But my point and almost everything DMlair states is due to either Casters changing the game at high level and WOTC not recognizing it and adjusting the martial, monster, and adventures to that change.

No, very little of what he actually mentions is specific to casters. You by your own admission said 4 of 10 things he mentions are applicable to non-casters. 6 of 10, even if it were true, is not "almost anything".

 

[Minigiant]

Things like Giants Might, Battlemaster Maneuvers, Vigilant defender, Arcane Shots etc are fighter features. They are things you can select if you play a fighter (as are feats for what it is worth).

They are every bit as much fighter features as spells are wizard class features. When you gain levels in fighter you get these features, just like a Wizard gets more spells when they gain levels.

Those are subclass features.

Subclass features with out a unifying design philosophy, a shared design mentality, nor even a similar design schedule.

You have a Rune Knight that scales throughout the tiers, gains OOC features, and increases complexity and a Champion that doesn't.

A fighter reliant on their subclass to scale, increases versatility bring OOC, and fulfill fantasy.

But unlike a ranger that does the same, there is no structure in design of fighter subclasses.

 

[ECMO3]

Those are subclass features.

Subclass features with out a unifying design philosophy, a shared design mentality, nor even a similar design schedule.

You have a Rune Knight that scales throughout the tiers, gains OOC features, and increases complexity and a Champion that doesn't.

A fighter reliant on their subclass to scale, increases versatility bring OOC, and fulfill fantasy.

Ok, but they are still part of the fighter class and things that fighters get. Wizards get spells and rely on their spells to scale. It is no different in that regard

But unlike a ranger that does the same, there is no structure in design of fighter subclasses.

I would argue there is little structure in Ranger subclasses either. Hunter, Drakewarden, Fey Wanderer and Gloomstalker for example are wildly different in design and theme, and Fey Wanderer in particular can be played like a full caster at most levels with very few weapon attacks in combat.

 

[Minigiant]

Ok, but they are still part of the fighter class and things that fighters get. Wizards get spells and rely on their spells to scale. It is no different in that regard



I would argue there is little structure in Ranger subclasses either. Hunter, Drakewarden, Fey Wanderer and Gloomstalker for example are wildly different in design and theme, and Fey Wanderer in particular can be played like a full caster at most levels with very few weapon attacks in combat.

Every Ranger subclass gets a damage boost at level 3 and level 11. Even BM.

Fighter subclass. Crapshoot. Champion and Battlemaster both get offense at level 3 but not Out of Combat at level 7. Cavalier doesn't get offensive, it gets defender stuff and OOC. EK technically gets neither offense, defense, or OOC unless you take the right spells, it's misting versatility. Then you get power level.. It's all over.