D&D 5E The Fighter/Martial Problem (In Depth Ponderings)

[ECMO3]

Every Ranger subclass gets a damage boost at level 3 and level 11. Even BM.

First every fighter gets a boost at 11 and 20 with the additional attacks they get. Second, Gloomstalker does not get a damage boost at level 3. They get some nifty features, including Dread Ambusher that is very powerful but situational at low and mid levels. But that is not a damage boost and once you hit the levels we are talking about it is largely redundant with Nature's Veil even when it is situationally useful.

I will also point out that we are talking about high level. Cavalier gets a ton of offense at high level due to his bonus action attacks, buffed attack and extra AOOs (maybe that is what you mean by defender stuff?) but he is doing more damage.

Champions get more damage from the extra figthing style they get and superior critical, which comes on at level 15. When you are considering reduced crit range, also realize that a crit always hits regardless of AC, so a high level champion hits everything on a natural 18 or higher AND does double damage dice regardless of AC. That is a substantial boost, and with a good weapon on an optimized ranger it is more of a boost than most Rangers are getting from their subclass features at level 15.

Fighter subclass. Crapshoot. Champion and Battlemaster both get offense at level 3 but not Out of Combat at level 7. Cavalier doesn't get offensive, it gets defender stuff and OOC. EK technically gets neither offense, defense, or OOC unless you take the right spells, it's misting versatility. Then you get power level.. It's all over.

IF you are saying fighter subclasses are not all equal you are right. You can choose a good fighter subclass and weak fighter subclasses. The same thing is true about spells though. If I pick a caster and choose to prepare/know weak spells at every level, I will have a weak wizard, certainly weaker than the strongest fighter is at that level.

Purposely choose weak spells and you have a weak Wizard. Purposely choose weak fighter subclasses and you have a weak fighter.

 

[FrogReaver]

Made it to level 4 in Solasta main campaign

Damage numbers now are at:
Druid - 380
Wizard - 341
Paladin - 324
Cleric - 306

Notes:
Spike Growth and Moonbeam really put the Druid on the map damage-wise.
Wizard would be a bit lower but scorching ray against a weak vs fire enemy gave him an edge.
Enemies are rarely closing in to melee enough to justify the Paladin smiting alot - it's often mop up duty by the time they get there.

Just hit level 5.
Damage numbers are now at:
Druid - 661
Wizard - 616
Paladin - 605
Cleric - 513

Paladin also just acquired a +1 longbow, and will be crafting a +1 rapier soon.

 

[FrogReaver]

IF you are saying fighter subclasses are not all equal you are right. You can choose a good fighter subclass and weak fighter subclasses. The same thing is true about spells though. If I pick a caster and choose to prepare/know weak spells at every level, I will have a weak wizard, certainly weaker than the strongest fighter is at that level.

Purposely choose weak spells and you have a weak Wizard. Purposely choose weak fighter subclasses and you have a weak fighter.

#NotTheSame

Fighters make 1 single subclass choice and can end up bad. Wizards make 2 spell choices per level (cannot even prepare all their spells known anyways) and can add spells to their spell book as part of the adventure. Practically speaking, the stars have to align to make an actually bad wizard. Fighters are just not the same.

 

[ECMO3]

Fighters make 1 single subclass choice and can end up bad.

That is just false.

RAW, A fighter chooses a subclass first at level 3 and can change to another subclass at level 7, 10, 15 and 18. When they change, they replace all the abilities with abilities from the new subclass (TCE page 8).

Not only can a fighter change a subclass, an optimizer should change subclasses in a 1-20 campaign, because the subclasses that are most powerful at level 3 are not generally still the most powerful at level 18 and powerful options in one part of the campaign are not necessarily powerful in another part of the campaign.

So yes for example, you can take a ranged type build, play a Battlemaster or Rune Knight with Archery fighting style and getting sharpshooter, then switch fighting styles to superior technique at 6 just in time to switch to Arcane Archer at 7 when curving shot comes on so you no longer need Archery. Then at level 15 when you pretty much hit everything anyway and your grasping arrow is less potent, you can switch to Eldritch Knight just in time to grab 10 spells, including counterspell, and a free teleport with your action surge. Level 16 grab Fey Touched and Hex so you can add a d6 to all your damage and your enemies have disadvantage on skills ...... and you can cast it with your newly acquired Fighter spell slots. This is all RAW!

A wizard has many choices to cover up and mitigate a poor spell choice. A fighter can completely undo and replace a poor subclass choice but can only do that at certain (several) points in a 1-20 campaign.

 

[FrogReaver]

Just hit level 5.
Damage numbers are now at:
Druid - 661
Wizard - 616
Paladin - 605
Cleric - 513

Paladin also just acquired a +1 longbow, and will be crafting a +1 rapier soon.

@Oofta
37 XP away from level 6
Damage numbers are now at:
Paladin: 1602
Cleric: 1372
Druid: 1264
Wizard: 1007

One other interesting tidbit - i usually focus on aoe control with my druids and wizards, but this time i've focused on damage spells and it's been one of my easier playthroughs thus far.

The wizard rarely has had a need or good opportunity to use damaging spells. Enemies are usually too spread for a good fireball, and weak enemies are already getting chewed up by spirit guardians and moonbeam, so there's been little reason to add fireballs to the mix. With better opportunities he probably would be at the Druids damage levels.

Also range and surprise have been lesser factors than they were in the early game.

 

[Zardnaar]

That is just false.

RAW, A fighter chooses a subclass first at level 3 and can change to another subclass at level 7, 10, 15 and 18. When they change, they replace all the abilities with abilities from the new subclass (TCE page 8).

Not only can a fighter change a subclass, an optimizer should change subclasses in a 1-20 campaign, because the subclasses that are most powerful at level 3 are not generally still the most powerful at level 18 and powerful options in one part of the campaign are not necessarily powerful in another part of the campaign.

So yes for example, you can take a ranged type build, play a Battlemaster or Rune Knight with Archery fighting style and getting sharpshooter, then switch fighting styles to superior technique at 6 just in time to switch to Arcane Archer at 7 when curving shot comes on so you no longer need Archery. Then at level 15 when you pretty much hit everything anyway and your grasping arrow is less potent, you can switch to Eldritch Knight just in time to grab 10 spells, including counterspell, and a free teleport with your action surge. Level 16 grab Fey Touched and Hex so you can add a d6 to all your damage and your enemies have disadvantage on skills ...... and you can cast it with your newly acquired Fighter spell slots. This is all RAW!

A wizard has many choices to cover up and mitigate a poor spell choice. A fighter can completely undo and replace a poor subclass choice but can only do that at certain (several) points in a 1-20 campaign.

Tasha rule falls under ask the DM though it's not RAW as such.

 

[FrogReaver]

Tasha rule falls under ask the DM though it's not RAW as such.

I find the more interesting point is that Tasha's tried to do alot to help martials and characters in general.

Conceptually I really dislike the Tasha's rule on changing subclass - my subclass as a fighter is part of my identity and it doesn't make narrative sense to lose all my particular styles of fighting abilities and then replace them all with another.

 

[FrogReaver]

@Oofta
37 XP away from level 6
Damage numbers are now at:
Paladin: 1602
Cleric: 1372
Druid: 1264
Wizard: 1007

One other interesting tidbit - i usually focus on aoe control with my druids and wizards, but this time i've focused on damage spells and it's been one of my easier playthroughs thus far.

The wizard rarely has had a need or good opportunity to use damaging spells. Enemies are usually too spread for a good fireball, and weak enemies are already getting chewed up by spirit guardians and moonbeam, so there's been little reason to add fireballs to the mix. With better opportunities he probably would be at the Druids damage levels.

Also range and surprise have been lesser factors than they were in the early game.

Just wanted to share that I’m thoroughly surprised that the Paladin has soared so much higher for damage in tier 2. And it’s only going to get worse once I get to make his doomblade rapier which just requires me getting back to the main town to purchase a cheap part of the crafting recipe.

 

[ECMO3]

Tasha rule falls under ask the DM though it's not RAW as such.

It is RAW.

Everything is by the DMs approval including half the spells people complain about. The rule is not an "optional" rule as many, like feats, and Tasha's optional class abilities are.

Here is the exact verbiage:

Each character class involves the choice of a subclass at 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level. A subclass represents an area of specialization and offers different class features as you level up. With your DM’s approval, you can change your subclass when you would normally gain a new subclass feature. If you decide to make this change, choose another subclass that belongs to your class and replace all your old subclass features with the features of the new subclass that are for your new level and lower.

I believe there is similar wording for many of the races. If you DM is not letting you do something with your character that is clearly within the rules, that sounds like a DM problem.

 

[ECMO3]

I find the more interesting point is that Tasha's tried to do alot to help martials and characters in general.

Conceptually I really dislike the Tasha's rule on changing subclass - my subclass as a fighter is part of my identity and it doesn't make narrative sense to lose all my particular styles of fighting abilities and then replace them all with another.

I suppose, but that is player specific. I know I have not changed subclasses personally, but I am not really an all-out optimizer and I know from experience, I find fighters fun to play all the way to level 20 and Monks fun to play to at least level 15 (the highest I have played a Monk so far).

IF mechanical deficiencies were making me not have fun I would look towards rules that would make the character fun to play.

I guess it is what is important. If the narrative is more important than the power, then stick to the story. If the PC power is a bigger driver then it is pretty easy to come up with a story or explanation in a world where magic and the supernatural exists.