D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

This may be true, but it is a different claim to what you said previously.

Here you are claiming that the metric WotC uses for the success of their surveys is sales. That is not the same as saying "everything WotC does is with goal of increasing sales". A "metric" is a measurement. There is no way to measure the impact that a survey done in 2022/2023 has on sales of a product in 2024. Whatever they may be, WotC's metrics for a successful survey are not future sales.
Making a game that more people like and will likely buy leads to greater sales/profits (I'm equating the two for this situation). The survey tells them what the most people like. I don't see the error I'm supposedly making here.
 

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See, I just can't accept that WotC's 5e is the best possible role-playing game, and that conclusion is all I can draw from what you're saying. Popularity simply does not equal quality.
Neither is there any negative correlation. To equivalent slightly on "quality," Ibwouldnprofer that nothing that is popular is so without having a certain quality to it, and I would include the achlokiest TV show or movie one could dredge up in that.

It is certainly the game designed in the highest data environment, which is a stupendous advantage for designing an effective product. That’s really what WotC has on other RPG makers, the sheer data on user activities and preferences.
 

Making a game that more people like and will likely buy leads to greater sales/profits (I'm equating the two for this situation). The survey tells them what the most people like. I don't see the error I'm supposedly making here.
Sure, ao theybhave a profit motive to make their customers happy, which the designers take advantage of to make a game that makes users happy. The Horrors of this dystopia, will they never end.
 

I mean, seriously...do you have a different paradigm, because I haven't really gotten one from what you wrote above...?

Okay… you skipped the questions. What makes 5e fun for you? Like some specific examples would be good, not “I get to have pretend adventures”. What does it do well, specifically?

Why do you not like 4e? Or some other RPG? What do they not do well?

I imagine there are two games you find to be fun. What is it that makes one game more fun for you than the other?
 

Making a game that more people like and will likely buy leads to greater sales/profits (I'm equating the two for this situation). The survey tells them what the most people like. I don't see the error I'm supposedly making here.
You stated that WotC measure the success of their surveys based on sales.
I challenged that.
You responded that WotC do surveys because they want to sell more products.
You are falsely equating WotC's goals with how they measure the success of a process.
 


By this measure, John Harper's design of Agon 2nd ed is bad design, or Luke and Thor's design of Torchbearer 2e, given that all three would be well aware that there games would be more appealing if they were 5e D&D variants.

I regard this as a reductio on your inference to bad design.
This assumes the D&D and Agon or Torchbearer are all targeting the same marketing segments.

The reality is that virtually all RPG design is in reaction to D&D, in as much as they target parts of the RPG market that want something other than D&D. And within those smaller segments of the market, John Harper and Luke & Thor are certainly aiming to make their games as appealing as possible. I mean, that's ostensibly why there's a Torchbearer 2e. Having gotten feedback through the release of its first edition, the designers endeavored to keep what everyone liked about the first edition, and improve on it for greater appeal, within that marketing segment.

As far as I can see, "do we design for good design, or do we design for mass appeal" is a false dichotomy. Good design is by definition design that appeals to its target audience. The only question is, how that target audience is defined.

Which is of course the crux around 4e. For certain segments of the market, it was tremendously well-designed. For other segments, it was a complete failure of design. The interesting question, to me, is what makes up those respective segments? And for 5e, what are the segments that it is appealing to that have made it such a success, and what are they looking for in design that makes 5e appealing to them? For good or ill, that is not the conversation that we have in the usual online spaces, because people prefer to define "good design" by what appeals to them.

As far as 5e's playtest surveys go, the sample is inherently biased, but that is not really an issue for WotC's purposes. One of the lessons WotC took from 4e was the Gnome Effect. Which is, you might find that only a minority of your players like playing gnomes, so it seems like a good idea to remove gnomes from the PHB and replace them with something new and fresh. But while those gnome-players as a category may only be a minority, they may be in a majority (or at least half) of the groups that play. So the effect of removing them is far greater than anticipated.

All WotC wants to do is avoid landmines. That's what the surveys are for. The surveys don't drive design, they only tell WotC what isn't working. It still falls to the designers and developers to come up with new iterations that satisfy a super majority of respondents. And the segment of the population that checks out the playtest and responds to the survey are precisely the segment that will lead any backlash to design decisions they make.
 

This assumes the D&D and Agon or Torchbearer are all targeting the same marketing segments.

The reality is that virtually all RPG design is in reaction to D&D, in as much as they target parts of the RPG market that want something other than D&D. And within those smaller segments of the market, John Harper and Luke & Thor are certainly aiming to make their games as appealing as possible. I mean, that's ostensibly why there's a Torchbearer 2e. Having gotten feedback through the release of its first edition, the designers endeavored to keep what everyone liked about the first edition, and improve on it for greater appeal, within that marketing segment.

As far as I can see, "do we design for good design, or do we design for mass appeal" is a false dichotomy. Good design is by definition design that appeals to its target audience. The only question is, how that target audience is defined.
Who is the market for Torchbearer, though?

I mean, Luke and Thor aren't idiots - they can predict in advance that they will not sell as many books as WotC does. But given that you are distinguishing "target market" from who bought it, who do you think is their target market? I mean, objectively speaking, probably anyone who enjoyed 4e D&D might find Torchbearer at least interesting. Does that mean it has a target market in the hundreds of thousands?

Which is of course the crux around 4e. For certain segments of the market, it was tremendously well-designed. For other segments, it was a complete failure of design. The interesting question, to me, is what makes up those respective segments? And for 5e, what are the segments that it is appealing to that have made it such a success, and what are they looking for in design that makes 5e appealing to them? For good or ill, that is not the conversation that we have in the usual online spaces, because people prefer to define "good design" by what appeals to them.
So am I part of 5e's target market?
 

This implies that they don't want and/or care about D&D fans who aren't on Beyond. Is that what you're saying?

Well really, why would they? What’s in it for WotC?

But again, and this cannot be stressed enough, this is what the fandom has demanded. Any time WotC tries to color outside the lines, the fandom starts freaking out. So…
 

It seems that (again) you're not familiar with 4e D&D's healing mechanics.
No, even by your own explanations, you're wrong. Given how self-evident that is, I'm honestly not sure why you can't see that, but I'll try and walk you through it anyway.
A cleric's Healing Word is mechanically the same as Inspiring Word. In the fiction, the cleric speaks a prayer and the character is able to dig deep into their reserves.
That's not what happens in the fiction (hence the term "healing" in the power's name).

My guess is that you're confused because you just read the blurb on page 61 of the PHB – "Using the healing word power, clerics can grant their comrades additional resilience with nothing more than a short prayer." – and (apparently) stopped there. Now, that certainly sounds like it could be interpreted as having the target character "dig deep into their reserves," but it clashes with the text on the very next page, where the healing word power is presented, and where the italicized text gives the in-character presentation for what healing word does:

You whisper a brief prayer as divine light washes over your target, helping to mend its wounds.

That's not "dig deep into their reserves" by any measure, since it literally describes it as wounds being mended. And yet the target character is the one who spends a healing surge.

This is the best proof of my point that you could ask for, as 4E says that hit point restoration via the very same mechanic is one thing (tapping into a personal reserve to regain combat capability) on one page, and then immediately turns around and says that it's something else (a cleric's using divine power to close wounds) on the next page. That's flat-out inconsistent, and openly portrays the double duty that 4E has hit points doing.

There is no "single mechanic" here, and no "cognitive gap:".
And yet you've amply demonstrated how a single mechanic is being employed, and given the best example yet of 4E's cognitive gap on display. Thanks for that!
 
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