D&D (2024) Playtest 8 Monk Discussion

[Chaosmancer]

At will makes it comparable to uncanny dodge. Which just reduces damage by half.

1d10+dex+monk level reduction on as an at will power is maybe a bit overtuned. So maybe reduce it to martial art die + monk level + dex. That at least makes it a bit more sane at low level.

I could get behind that change. In raw numbers, it is 2 less on average, but that should be fine.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Good direction for the Monk, but... I'm still worried. They don't have any exploration features or skill bumps, when all the other martials are getting some. Even Barbarian and Fighter do.

Lots of new tricks, but without using BA for attacks, we're looking at the worst damage from a martial in the game. Rogue and Ranger with Sneak Attack and Marks, Fighter, Paladin and Barbarians with great weapons all outdo basic Monk punch all while keeping their BA open too. So, I'm worried that NOT using BA to attack or use Flurry is going to become a trap 90% of the time.

Monks being Dex and Wis have always done decently at skills, and with some of their abilities like walking up surfaces, they have always had a decent niche in terms of exploration.

One thing I don't think should be forgotten is the changes to the unarmed strikes in the first playtest. A monk making two unarmed attacks can grapple and push with ease. Use an attack to grapple, maybe get a punch on them for stun or bonus damage, bonus action to step of the wind and drag the enemy away. Next turn, it is you and the enemy. You deflect attacks, bonus action dodge and gain temp hp... even if you aren't dishing out the damage like crazy, you are sitting pretty in that fight.

 

[Horwath]

I could get behind that change. In raw numbers, it is 2 less on average, but that should be fine.

I would put Martial arts die + dex bonus.
Then you can spend 1 disc pt to add monk level.
If you succeed then to reduce damage to 0, retaliation damage is free of disc cost. But damage is only one martial arts die, not two.

 

[Zaukrie]

Definitely a fan of these changes.

 

[Horwath]

Otherwise, why bother with any restrictions on weapons at all?

This was always my question?

Would a wizard with a greatsword break anything?
No!

Investment in STR(or DEX), extra attack(s), fighting styles, feats and attack riders make that character martial or non martial. not one step up on damage die.

Same with armor.
we have some STR requirements for heavy armor.
apply it to ALL armors(and shields) and have anyone with sufficient STR use that armor.
maybe it will reduce the inflation of 8 STR characters.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Still on multiclassing...
I actually quickly spreadsheeted some damage numbers for a pure monk vs the Rogue1-dipping shady monk.
shady monk uses a scimitar/shortsword combo (to get Vex+Nick+sneakattack)
pure monk just uses a quarterstaff (to get d8 damage die)
(ignored crits and Ki use and that sometimes sneak attack conditions aren't fulfilled, because rough sketch)

lvl	shady monk	pure monk
2	13.35	9.1
3	13.35	9.1
4	13.35	11.2
5	15.75	15.05
6	23.9	17.85

That's a big jump at lv6, and the shady one is not just consistently maintaining a higher damage output, but also having double-Expertise to show off with. But... that shady monk isn't ridiculously stronger, if you value earlier access to new features over Expertise (like your second subclass feature at lv6 being something great), and (heavily campaign-dependent but could be crippling) not having to worry about finding two specific types of magical weapons (as Empowered Strikes doesn't apply to monk weapons).

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Still on multiclassing...
I actually quickly spreadsheeted some damage numbers for a pure monk vs the Rogue1-dipping shady monk.
shady monk uses a scimitar/shortsword combo (to get Vex+Nick+sneakattack)
pure monk just uses a quarterstaff (to get d8 damage die)
(ignored crits and Ki use and that sometimes sneak attack conditions aren't fulfilled, because rough sketch)

lvl	shady monk	pure monk
2	13.35	9.1
3	13.35	9.1
4	13.35	11.2
5	15.75	15.05
6	23.9	17.85

That's a big jump at lv6, and the shady one is not just consistently maintaining a higher damage output, but also having double-Expertise to show off with. But... that shady monk isn't ridiculously stronger, if you value earlier access to new features over Expertise (like your second subclass feature at lv6 being something great), and (heavily campaign-dependent but could be crippling) not having to worry about finding two specific types of magical weapons (as Empowered Strikes doesn't apply to monk weapons).

I really think, nick needs a revision that sounds: you can't use your bonus action to attack on the same turn you use nick.

Similar to the rule where you can't use your action to cast a other levelled spell if you use your bonus action for a levelled spell.

Would prevent a lot of unwanted interactions.

On the other hand, the pure monk gets earlier access to all their abilities. Like discipline points and their uses, deflect blows. And if you reach level 20, you might be sorry to have multiclassed because you miss that big power jump.

But if all you want is bigger damage numbers, shady monk does fine.

 

[Mephista]

Monks being Dex and Wis have always done decently at skills, and with some of their abilities like walking up surfaces, they have always had a decent niche in terms of exploration.

Monks are the ONLY class that relies on raw stats for skills. Casters have magic to supplement. Rogue, Ranger, Bard, Artificer have Expertise. Barbarians have Primal Knowledge and Fighters have Tactical Mind. Paladins are the closest to the monk's situation, but they're still half-casters, with all that implies, with Detect / Locate X and Command magics at minimum, and their steeds as pseudo-familiars.

Meanwhile, walking on water, the closest thing to an exploration feature of the Monk, is a level 9 feature. That's end game for 95% of games, and doesn't see play a lot at this point, especially when most water walking needs the entire party to pass, not just one person. So, no, its not really a niche if its super rare.

One thing I don't think should be forgotten is the changes to the unarmed strikes in the first playtest. A monk making two unarmed attacks can grapple and push with ease. Use an attack to grapple, maybe get a punch on them for stun or bonus damage, bonus action to step of the wind and drag the enemy away. Next turn, it is you and the enemy. You deflect attacks, bonus action dodge and gain temp hp... even if you aren't dishing out the damage like crazy, you are sitting pretty in that fight.

Assuming you can drag enemies. That still butts up against Carrying Capacity rules, which require strength. Ignore them if you wish at your table, but they're not RAW and ignoring the rules is not consistent across tables. And, frankly, making multiple unarmed attacks to push/shove/etc is something everyone can do. Its just that the monk gets to do them for the first time. That's not making them special, its bringing them up to the basic level everyone else is already at.

Plus? Other martials have weapon masteries now. So, they're pushing, tripping, etc as a part of their normal damage. The monk is not. The monk can do one or the other while fighters, barbarians and paladins are doing both at once.

 

[mellored]

Meanwhile, walking on water, the closest thing to an exploration feature of the Monk, is a level 9 feature.

They can also double their jump distance at level 2.

But I do agree they are light on out of combat utility.

That's not making them special, its bringing them up to the basic level everyone else is already at.

Stunning Stike is special.

 

[Vikingkingq]

Meanwhile, walking on water, the closest thing to an exploration feature of the Monk, is a level 9 feature. That's end game for 95% of games, and doesn't see play a lot at this point, especially when most water walking needs the entire party to pass, not just one person. So, no, its not really a niche if its super rare.

I think Slow Fall also counts as an exploration feature, for when there are pit traps or collapsing floors or a bridge gives out, or just traversing downwards fast in a pinch. Likewise, Unarmored Movement (plus good Dex and Wis skills) makes the Monk a cromulent scout - not as good at wilderness as the Ranger, not as good at dungeons as the Rogue, but decent all-around. Evasion is also good for traps that have Dex saves.

Does the Monk have the most exploration features? No. But it's more than just one.