D&D (2024) Playtest 8 Monk Discussion

[Chaosmancer]

I'm not in a position to sit down and math right now, but I'm thinking maybe the issue is the mercy monk?

An elements monk or shadow monk isn't going to be able to heal themselves every turn or poison the dragon every turn. They likely can't add much extra damage either.

So, before we get too far into "monks are now broken" can we run a different monk and consider if this is just "MERCY monks are now broken"

 

[Gammadoodler]

I'm not in a position to sit down and math right now, but I'm thinking maybe the issue is the mercy monk?

An elements monk or shadow monk isn't going to be able to heal themselves every turn or poison the dragon every turn. They likely can't add much extra damage either.

So, before we get too far into "monks are now broken" can we run a different monk and consider if this is just "MERCY monks are now broken"

Inclined to agree that insofar as there is an issue, it's likely a subclass issue.

Edit: and further, assuming it's an issue, that it's likely only an issue beyond level 18 when the damage resist comes online.

Edit 2: I think the question for other subclasses would be how they perform with the refillable patient defense temp hp + dodge vs. incoming damage.

 

[Weiley31]

these UA 1st level feats are little tricky,
some are half feats, some are little more(3/4th??), none are worth a full feat, and some are just terrible.

we need another UA with all feats thrown in to see what is what.

That's why I like to award those UA feats as either Faction/Renown bonus related or from specialized Downtime for my games when the PCs are in-between adventures.

Heck, some of them may work as background feat choice options as well.

 

[mellored]

never saw what the idea is behind rolling all attacks at once, unless it's stated that all targets must be declared in advance(as certain spells are).

Speed. Just faster to roll more dice at once.

Though we declare different dice to be different attacks.
I.e. the red die is the first attack with the bonus.

 

[Stalker0]

Thanks, that's about what I expected. I think the only wrinkle is that if the fight goes beyond 10 rounds, the monk has to re-up superior defense.

Ah good point. I ran it another 500000 times and did get the monk to die once without patient defense used at all. So its possible, just reaaally unlikely.

I think we can safely say that for a normal combat duration (3-8 rounds), that the monk against this dragon is invincible.

 

[Stalker0]

Inclined to agree that insofar as there is an issue, it's likely a subclass issue.

Edit: and further, assuming it's an issue, that it's likely only an issue beyond level 18 when the damage resist comes online.

Edit 2: I think the question for other subclasses would be how they perform with the refillable patient defense temp hp + dodge vs. incoming damage.

Great Question. So I reran it turning off the healing and just using the patient defense TempHP. I ran the combats to the 11th round, as that is when superior defense would first run out (and frankly if you have tanked a high level combat to 10 rounds you have gone way above and beyond, since most fights last like 3 rounds).

The monk tanked to 10.98 rounds (aka only once in a blue moon was the dragon able to take them down, otherwise they finished the fight conscious).

1v1 the high level monk is very very tanky.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Great Question. So I reran it turning off the healing and just using the patient defense TempHP. I ran the combats to the 11th round, as that is when superior defense would first run out (and frankly if you have tanked a high level combat to 10 rounds you have gone way above and beyond, since most fights last like 3 rounds).

The monk tanked to 10.98 rounds (aka only once in a blue moon was the dragon able to take them down, otherwise they finished the fight conscious).

1v1 the high level monk is very very tanky.

Gotcha. Thanks! And to be fair, this is maximum tankiness as they'd likely burn out on discipline long before round 10 from stuns, reaction damage, save rerolls and other discipline-use abilities.

So to get to round 10 and beyond they'd have to be making some significant sacrifices along the way.

 

[Kurotowa]

So, before we get too far into "monks are now broken" can we run a different monk and consider if this is just "MERCY monks are now broken"

Yeah, this smells to me of the Bladelock discussion, where the problem wasn't anything in the UA Warlock package but in the Spirit Shroud spell from Tasha's. Mercy Monk wasn't even reprinted in UA6, being close enough for testing purposes, and that was before the large scale revisions in UA8. I can't imagine there won't be tweaks in the post-testing balance adjustment phase to all the subclasses in light of the UA8 model.

Edit: Also, any DM who runs a high level dragon that isn't exploiting things like flight and lair actions deserves to have their monster stomped.

 

[Stalker0]

Ok couldn't help myself. So I decided to sim the monk all the way, including ki use and everything, to see how effective it truly is against the dragon 1v1. No subclasses, straight up.

NOTE: Technically in a 1v1, the dragon doesn't get all its legendary actions. But I think that's been changed in a lot of recent monsters so I'm assuming that.

I simmed with the monk going 3 different styles. Again no mercy monk this time, no real subclass features included.

Always: Superior Defense put on round 1 and whenever it runs out (assuming there ki left)

Sim 1: Patient Defense as a ki using bonus action. So 2 attacks per round + dodge + temp HP. Result: Dragon has 246 HP left.
Sim 2: Dodge as an action + flurry using Ki. So 3 attacks per round + dodge + no temp HP. Result: Dragon has 296 HP left.
Sim 3: Attack as an action + flurry using Ki. So 5 attacks per round. Result: Dragon has 320 HP left.

So it appears that "patience" is the best play for the monk against such an offense heavy opponent. But yeah the monk isn't going to beat a dragon 1v1.

 

[Horwath]

Speed. Just faster to roll more dice at once.

Though we declare different dice to be different attacks.
I.e. the red die is the first attack with the bonus.

while you declare which color is which you are already behind rolling and I'm not sure if you saved some time.

only time when we roll multiple d20 for attack is when is a bunch of same mooks with same attack.

I.E. 27 mooks attack party member 1, if there is enough damage to drop party member 1, rest of attacks go to party member 2.