D&D (2024) Playtest 8 Monk Discussion

[UngeheuerLich]

It's also worth noting that the 5e PHB monk, with multiple chances to land a stun, had more potential to drop a monster's total DPR to zero for a round and set them up for some biiig incoming damage from all attacks coming in at advantage and a bunch of auto-failed dex saves..and all that with a chance to chain that effect round over round. The ki burn rate to do it meant it was unsustainable for more than a couple rounds, but I'd submit that it was a far more significant damage enabler than pretty much anything in the UA monk's kit.

I think the new monk is more fun though, because it is not a one trick pony anymore.

 

[Gammadoodler]

I think the new monk is more fun though, because it is not a one trick pony anymore.

Agreed. They gave it a lot more levers to pull and made it a lot easier to pull them.

I'll miss the prior potence of stunning strike, but I'm happy to give it up for all that the monk is getting.

Mainly just looking to keep in mind what the UA is giving up when we're looking at what it is capable of.

Like, I'd agree that there is some amount of increased power here, but mostly I think the changes just make the monk more user-friendly..at most every level..

..and that's awesome.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Part of the strength of the effect is also how DMs decide to handle multiple attacks.

I agree

Some DMs for example will roll all the attacks first, meaning the monk can cherry pick which attack to react to (such as a crit). While others will expect to deliver the results one at a time, and the monk has to decide which one as they go.

You can argue that of the 1v1 targets a monk might face at high CRs, a dragon is one of the worst matchups, as dragons do get lots of attacks (6 with its full use of LA). So the deflect attack drops a lower portion of the DPR overall.

Now compare to an Empyrean who could get 4 attacks, any one of which a monk can basically completely soak, and the comparison gets even bigger.

And the barbarian would do even better against the Empyrean as well. Meanwhile, in a fight against four Marilith's the monk stopping one of 24 attacks isn't nearly as effective.

Ultimately I can see the concern that a high level monk is just better than a barbarian. Its one quick white room a page or two ago, but the monk is doing a lot of damage AND tanking better than the barbarian can. Now the super deflect attack I don't mind when the barbarian gets half damage on every attack made against them, that's a different niche. But when the monk gets that AND they get a way higher AC AND they also get resistance to all damage....the barbarian doesn't have much leg to stand on

Right, but that was a level 20 Hand of Mercy Monk, who was burning their strongest attacks every turn, versus a level 20 World Tree Barbarian who has no DPR class abilities. When compared to the Berserker which DOES have DPR abilities, they don't do as good (60 pts behind) and the Berserker's abilities weren't all accounted for, like their retaliation ability, and there was no accounting for the use of Brutal Strikes.

Just adding Retaliation should increase the barbarian to well over the Monk's damage.

 

[Clint_L]

Right, but that was a level 20 Hand of Mercy Monk, who was burning their strongest attacks every turn, versus a level 20 World Tree Barbarian who has no DPR class abilities. When compared to the Berserker which DOES have DPR abilities, they don't do as good (60 pts behind) and the Berserker's abilities weren't all accounted for, like their retaliation ability, and there was no accounting for the use of Brutal Strikes.

Just adding Retaliation should increase the barbarian to well over the Monk's damage.

I'd like to see the math. How long does that berserker survive? 4-5 rounds? The dragon is going to be hitting almost every attack, and doing more critical damage as well. That is going to be one violent clash!

Edit: I note that my current monk has bracers of defence, a ring of protection, and eldritch claw tattoos. I think at level 20 she would beat that dragon with just that equipment (+3 AC and around 11 extra DPR). It would certainly be close - might have to use a potion of haste. Being able to almost completely push critical hits by the dragon off the board makes the combat pretty predictable.

 

[Stalker0]

I'd like to see the math. How long does that berserker survive? 4-5 rounds? The dragon is going to be hitting almost every attack, and doing more critical damage as well. That is going to be one violent clash!

Edit: I note that my current monk has bracers of defence, a ring of protection, and eldritch claw tattoos. I think at level 20 she would beat that dragon with just that equipment (+3 AC and around 11 extra DPR). It would certainly be close - might have to use a potion of haste. Being able to almost completely push critical hits by the dragon off the board makes the combat pretty predictable.

Already posted earlier

https://www.enworld.org/threads/playtest-8-monk-discussion.701260/post-9210930

So my initial math on relentless rage felt a little jenky so I actually created a sim for it, and turns out I was spot on. The barb got in 5.97 rounds of attacks as the Berserker against the dragon. For context without Relentless Rage the Barb only lasts 4.01 rounds, so it really does help increase the durability.

 

[Horwath]

Part of the strength of the effect is also how DMs decide to handle multiple attacks.

Some DMs for example will roll all the attacks first, meaning the monk can cherry pick which attack to react to (such as a crit). While others will expect to deliver the results one at a time, and the monk has to decide which one as they go.

You can argue that of the 1v1 targets a monk might face at high CRs, a dragon is one of the worst matchups, as dragons do get lots of attacks (6 with its full use of LA). So the deflect attack drops a lower portion of the DPR overall.

Now compare to an Empyrean who could get 4 attacks, any one of which a monk can basically completely soak, and the comparison gets even bigger.


Ultimately I can see the concern that a high level monk is just better than a barbarian. Its one quick white room a page or two ago, but the monk is doing a lot of damage AND tanking better than the barbarian can. Now the super deflect attack I don't mind when the barbarian gets half damage on every attack made against them, that's a different niche. But when the monk gets that AND they get a way higher AC AND they also get resistance to all damage....the barbarian doesn't have much leg to stand on

never saw what the idea is behind rolling all attacks at once, unless it's stated that all targets must be declared in advance(as certain spells are).

how we roll always:

1. attack roll
1a. reactions to attack roll
2. damage roll
2a. reactions to damage roll

 

[James Gasik]

never saw what the idea is behind rolling all attacks at once, unless it's stated that all targets must be declared in advance(as certain spells are).

how we roll always:

1. attack roll
1a. reactions to attack roll
2. damage roll
2a. reactions to damage roll

It's an attempt to speed up play. My DM and the other players in my group do this (I'm a dinosaur and I resolve attacks one by one, just in case something strange happens).

As I'm the only character who can either fiddle with die rolls (I have a weaker version of Silvery Barbs called "Unluck on that!" from Deep Magic by Kobold Press- it only can reroll a successful die roll and has a shorter range), or increase my defense after the fact with Shield, this hasn't been an issue so far at the table.

 

[Gammadoodler]

I'd like to see the math. How long does that berserker survive? 4-5 rounds? The dragon is going to be hitting almost every attack, and doing more critical damage as well. That is going to be one violent clash!

Edit: I note that my current monk has bracers of defence, a ring of protection, and eldritch claw tattoos. I think at level 20 she would beat that dragon with just that equipment (+3 AC and around 11 extra DPR). It would certainly be close - might have to use a potion of haste. Being able to almost completely push critical hits by the dragon off the board makes the combat pretty predictable.

It occurs to me, I wonder how the UA monk does just going full sustain instead of flurrying.

Topping up the temp hp each turn using patient defense would take off 13 or so damage per round from the dragon (after resistance). Or just include hands of healing from way of mercy when you flurry to recover some hp/round (which the dragon would have to double in damage to deplete).

Edit: Assuming I'm reading things right a mercy monk could do 2 (or 3 if one of the Attack action unarmed atrikes hits) hands of healing and 1 hands of harm (assuming any unarmed strike hits) each turn healing up 30-45 damage per turn and applying poisoned. If that 19 dpr you'd calculated for the dragon is right, it'd seem like the dragon poses no threat as long as the monk has ki and actions to spend.

Edit 2: it'll be interesting to see what the extra attack in flurry of blows does for the subclasses. The extra heal for way of mercy seems pretty big. Way of the hand seems good but mostly gives you an opportunity to apply one more instance of a condition, likely a lower priority one if one or more of the flurries have already hit. It also makes Wholeness of Body a more significant damage sacrifice since it costs a bonus action.

 

[Stalker0]

It occurs to me, I wonder how the UA monk does just going full sustain instead of flurrying.

Topping up the temp hp each turn using patient defense would take off 13 or so damage per round from the dragon (after resistance). Or just include hands of healing from way of mercy when you flurry to recover some hp/round (which the dragon would have to double in damage to deplete).

Edit: Assuming I'm reading things right a mercy monk could do 2 (or 3 if one of the Attack action unarmed atrikes hits) hands of healing and 1 hands of harm (assuming any unarmed strike hits) each turn healing up 30-45 damage per turn and applying poisoned. If that 19 dpr you'd calculated for the dragon is right, it'd seem like the dragon poses no threat as long as the monk has ki and actions to spend.

Edit 2: it'll be interesting to see what the extra attack in flurry of blows does for the subclasses. The extra heal for way of mercy seems pretty big. Way of the hand seems good but mostly gives you an opportunity to apply one more instance of a condition, likely a lower priority one if one or more of the flurries have already hit. It also makes Wholeness of Body a more significant damage sacrifice since it costs a bonus action.

Since I had already simmed the barb was fairly easy to add this in. And the result....the monk is invincible against the Dragon until they run out of Ki. And you don't even need the patient defense temp HP (so you can save ki there), the monks healing hands were more than enough to compensate for the dragon when it damaged you (which with the deflect attacks, disadvantage on attacks, and high AC, wasn't all the time). It comes down to 3d12 + 7 healing is just more than the dragon ever puts out in one round.

So as long as the monk has Ki (which is 17 rounds if you assume 3 for the superior defense and then 1 ki/round for the flurry), the dragon cannot stop the monk.

UPDATE: Hell I just removed patient defense entirely....its not even needed. Even straight up, you can just get in your two regular attacks, and then heal with flurry attacks as needed, the dragon still can't touch you. Now it can get scary, the dragon did get the monk as low as 11 hp one time, so a player might throw in a patient defense once in a while if they are starting to get really low. But yeah over hundreds of thousands of times never saw the monk die.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Since I had already simmed the barb was fairly easy to add this in. And the result....the monk is invincible against the Dragon until they run out of Ki. And you don't even need the patient defense temp HP (so you can save ki there), the monks healing hands were more than enough to compensate for the dragon when it damaged you (which with the deflect attacks, disadvantage on attacks, and high AC, wasn't all the time). It comes down to 3d12 + 7 healing is just more than the dragon ever puts out in one round.

So as long as the monk has Ki (which is 17 rounds if you assume 3 for the superior defense and then 1 ki/round for the flurry), the dragon cannot stop the monk.

UPDATE: Hell I just removed patient defense entirely....its not even needed. Even straight up, you can just get in your two regular attacks, and then heal with flurry attacks as needed, the dragon still can't touch you. Now it can get scary, the dragon did get the monk as low as 11 hp one time, so a player might throw in a patient defense once in a while if they are starting to get really low. But yeah over hundreds of thousands of times never saw the monk die.

Thanks, that's about what I expected. I think the only wrinkle is that if the fight goes beyond 10 rounds, the monk has to re-up superior defense.