D&D (2024) Playtest 8 Monk Discussion

[Clint_L]

So, been testing this version of the monk out some more. I love it.

The first thing you notice is that you are no longer as concerned with using up your ki/di points. Uncanny metabolism is just such a relief to have on hand, and the fact that it is just a part of rolling initiative is perfect. So that by itself makes the monk much, much more fun.

I initially didn't think switching flurry of blows to being a straight bonus action was that big a deal. I was totally wrong. This small change really changes your tactical options because you can dodge as an action and still get two attacks off. This makes it a lot more feasible to take advantage of your high movement and rush behind the front lines, since not only will you have a much higher effective AC, you are also almost immune to critical hits, so you are not likely to get stuck back there due to one lucky roll from the DM.

You can't spam flurry of blows, which is a definite nerf, and kind of sucked when I tried to lock down a spellcaster who made their save. Doing a bit of damage anyway was fine but felt like a weird result; it would have made more sense to daze them or something. But I think the nerf was necessary, and since you now have more ways to spend your points, it doesn't hurt as much as I thought. In some ways, it feels like a relief not to feel like you have to keep spamming one ability until it sticks.

Deflect attack is freaking great. The one drawback is that my monk is a variant human who took the sentinel feat at level 1, and that means I have to decide whether to save my reaction for offence or use it for defence. So basically, I get a lot less use out of Sentinel. But choices are fun. As far as pure utility goes, deflect attack is very strong, and you can basically count on it to cancel one hit against you/turn. On rounds when my monk is tanking, which is definitely a thing you can do now, she felt very secure between dodge and deflect attack.

Patient defence: Getting disengage as a bonus action is nice. I have not yet wanted to spend the point to take the dodge action as well, partly because having deflect attack makes you worry a lot less about getting hit.

Step of the wind: I did have occasion to spend the point to disengage and dash to get to a troublesome spellcaster, and that felt really good, even if they did resist my stunning strike attempt (see above). Being able to dash as a flat bonus action is by far the best part of this ability; you are SO FAST.

My monk has eldritch claw tattoos so empowered strikes hasn't mattered.

Overall, my monk is only level 9 so I haven't tried out the higher level stuff, but I have played it enough to confidently say that this feels like the monk I've wanted. WotC really hit a home run.

Oh, one last thing - I've been a bit dismissive of the improved martial arts die, since it's only one extra HP damage on average. Which is true, but it feels like more? I dunno - I just find that it makes a bigger difference than I thought in terms of how satisfying it is to roll damage.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Snip

So basically what everyone expected. Probably even slightly overpowered (in combat) compared to the other martials.
But not compared to the new warlock.

So probaly all classes need to get some balance pass to bring them in line damage and defense wise also considering their utility.

And since spellcasters are the ones to measure with, I expect buffs for the rogue ratger than big nerfs for the monk (though I strongly assume that deflect attacks sees a little nerf, maybe martial arts die +half monk level +prof bonus).

 

[Asisreo]

I think Elemental Burst is more than situational - you can catch a hell of a lot of enemies in a 20-foot sphere, and it's guaranteed damage plus an Unarmed Attack. With the 4E's grouping abilities, I think you can definitely get some decent damage out of it.

Its not awful or anything, it does have to compete with your action, though. And with the 2 dp cost, its a pretty steep price compared to everything else you have. The additional attack does nothing too, and I'd bet they will just remove it rather than try to implement it properly.

 

[Vikingkingq]

Its not awful or anything, it does have to compete with your action, though. And with the 2 dp cost, its a pretty steep price compared to everything else you have. The additional attack does nothing too, and I'd bet they will just remove it rather than try to implement it properly.

It does, but the Monk cares less about that than other classes.

How do you mean the additional attack does nothing? It's an additional attack's worth of damage that absolutely should be included in the consideration of whether the AOE is worth the investment of DP. And given the 4E Monk's capacity to shape the battlefield, and the core Monk's ability to manuever across battlefields, I think you'd have to be actively trying not to connect in order to not have a target in range - especially since you can take the attack either before or after the Burst. You could very easily attack from 10ft away, Elemental Burst, and then just move away, or move halfway in, then attack from 10ft away, Elemental Burst, and move back out.

 

[Clint_L]

So basically what everyone expected. Probably even slightly overpowered (in combat) compared to the other martials.
But not compared to the new warlock.

Yeah, I hate to say overpowered because monks really need a boost, but they are very, very good now. Deflect attack really changes how they play and might be a bit overtuned. The class still feels very MAD, though, so that still limits what you can do. But as far as filling the fast skirmisher niche that they were designed for? Oh, yeah, they do that now. Being able to move 90' and still attack and stunning strike means that basically no one is safe. You have enough movement that you usually don't even have to worry about provoking opportunity attacks because you can just take the long route and still get where you want.

 

[Asisreo]

How do you mean the additional attack does nothing? It's an additional attack's worth of damage that absolutely should be included in the consideration of whether the AOE is worth the investment of DP. And given the 4E Monk's capacity to shape the battlefield, and the core Monk's ability to manuever across battlefields, I think you'd have to be actively trying not to connect in order to not have a target in range - especially since you can take the attack either before or after the Burst. You could very easily attack from 10ft away, Elemental Burst, and then just move away, or move halfway in, then attack from 10ft away, Elemental Burst, and move back out.

What I mean is that they get that extra attack by default anyways now, so that clause is likely to get removed rather than buffed.

But also, the main issue I have is that the 4elemonk doesn't have anything that can really shape the battlefield. They can move people, but that's it.

The old version could extend walls of fire or stone, manipulate large areas of water and ice, and turn into a gaseous form. That's what I want more of in the 4elemonk. Right now, its kinda just sterile and hardly feels like you can manipulate any of the elements beyond what someone can do with a waterskin or pocket sand.

I think rather than Elemental Burst doing only pure damage of a specific type, it can keep that damage if the player chooses Fire but there can be other effects for other elements. Like cold elemental burst could do two martial arts dice but turns the area into difficult terrain. Acid could do one MA dice but stays on the field and does DOT damage. And lightning could summon a lightning cloud that does 3x martial arts dice and it lingers to be used again as a BA or action, but it only targets a 10ft square area.

 

[Vikingkingq]

What I mean is that they get that extra attack by default anyways now, so that clause is likely to get removed rather than buffed.

Ah, I see what you mean. Or it's entirely possible it gets moved into the Magic Action, since it's clearly part of the damage calculations of the ability.

But also, the main issue I have is that the 4elemonk doesn't have anything that can really shape the battlefield. They can move people, but that's it.

That is massively shaping the battlefield! Being able to push and pull targets from range is a big effect.

The old version could extend walls of fire or stone, manipulate large areas of water and ice, and turn into a gaseous form. That's what I want more of in the 4elemonk. Right now, its kinda just sterile and hardly feels like you can manipulate any of the elements beyond what someone can do with a waterskin or pocket sand.

The old version was widely considered to be one of the worst subclasses in the game, precisely because it couldn't do any of those things, because it was always out of ki points and/or out of spell slots for a lot of mediocre spells!

This version can shape the battlefield more or less indefinitely, which is much better.

I think rather than Elemental Burst doing only pure damage of a specific type, it can keep that damage if the player chooses Fire but there can be other effects for other elements. Like cold elemental burst could do two martial arts dice but turns the area into difficult terrain. Acid could do one MA dice but stays on the field and does DOT damage. And lightning could summon a lightning cloud that does 3x martial arts dice and it lingers to be used again as a BA or action, but it only targets a 10ft square area.

There's not really much range to titrate down from 3x MA dice.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The old version was widely considered to be one of the worst subclasses in the game, precisely because it couldn't do any of those things, because it was always out of ki points and/or out of spell slots for a lot of mediocre spells!

While I agree with the ki points part, tge rest is wrong. Fireball is not a mediocre spell.

 

[Mistwell]

Just realized a Warforged Monk with a feat to get Defense can get up to an AC 21, prior to dodging. With the change to allowing Dex for everything, they're not as MAD as before and can focus on Wis and Dex.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Fireball is not a mediocre spell.

At lv11 when Elemental Monk gets it, yes it is.