D&D (2024) Playtest 8 Monk Discussion

[UngeheuerLich]

At lv11 when Elemental Monk gets it, yes it is.

Lets say, we disagree.

 

[James Gasik]

I mean, let's look at Fireball at level 11 by itself. Without upcasting, it's 28 damage on average (14 on a save). Upcasted to level 6 (if one were inclined to do such a thing) brings that up to 38.5 (19 on a save). So at first blush, the area and damage might seem pretty good for the 4 Elements Monk- though at it's 2014 cost of 4 ki, that's certainly debatable, especially since the Monk can't upcast it to level 6 but only level 4 (at a cost of 5 ki).

Actual spellcasters might stop stocking it entirely at this point. As a point of reference, I looked at the SRD CR 11 foes (I know level 11 ~ CR 11, but it's certainly something you could be fighting well before this point).

Of the 7 monsters presented, the Efreeti, the Horned Devil, and the Remorhaz are simply immune to Fireball. The average hit points of the remaining 4 is 178.25, with the Gynosphinx and the Roc being the extreme ends of the spectrum.

Even with better ki costs in 2024 (most likely), Fireball doesn't have a huge impact against these foes. It might be a huge spike in damage for the Monk, but it's costly and potentially difficult to use in some fights (as it is for anyone who uses it).

Personally, I'm on the fence. My Wizard rarely uses Fireball at level 7, though I have been facing devils and magic resistant foes lately, so that likely colors my perception. In the games I've played, I wouldn't be thrilled with Fireball at level 11- even if it's something I wouldn't normally have access to.

But on the other hand, it could be campaign dependent. Big areas with weaker foes who aren't fireproof? Being able to Fireball once or twice a battle might be decent, especially if you can nap for an hour to regain it (though at the cost of other cool things you might wish to do).

The gripping hand, well, I've seen a Fireball fail to kill a CR 1 Bugbear who failed his save, That doesn't mean it won't have a big impact on weaker foes, and it's not like non-casters often get any area effect abilities. But it does mean that it's likely going to be an option that isn't used all that regularly.

 

[Asisreo]

I mean, let's look at Fireball at level 11 by itself. Without upcasting, it's 28 damage on average (14 on a save). Upcasted to level 6 (if one were inclined to do such a thing) brings that up to 38.5 (19 on a save). So at first blush, the area and damage might seem pretty good for the 4 Elements Monk- though at it's 2014 cost of 4 ki, that's certainly debatable, especially since the Monk can't upcast it to level 6 but only level 4 (at a cost of 5 ki).

Actual spellcasters might stop stocking it entirely at this point. As a point of reference, I looked at the SRD CR 11 foes (I know level 11 ~ CR 11, but it's certainly something you could be fighting well before this point).

Of the 7 monsters presented, the Efreeti, the Horned Devil, and the Remorhaz are simply immune to Fireball. The average hit points of the remaining 4 is 178.25, with the Gynosphinx and the Roc being the extreme ends of the spectrum.

Even with better ki costs in 2024 (most likely), Fireball doesn't have a huge impact against these foes. It might be a huge spike in damage for the Monk, but it's costly and potentially difficult to use in some fights (as it is for anyone who uses it).

Personally, I'm on the fence. My Wizard rarely uses Fireball at level 7, though I have been facing devils and magic resistant foes lately, so that likely colors my perception. In the games I've played, I wouldn't be thrilled with Fireball at level 11- even if it's something I wouldn't normally have access to.

But on the other hand, it could be campaign dependent. Big areas with weaker foes who aren't fireproof? Being able to Fireball once or twice a battle might be decent, especially if you can nap for an hour to regain it (though at the cost of other cool things you might wish to do).

The gripping hand, well, I've seen a Fireball fail to kill a CR 1 Bugbear who failed his save, That doesn't mean it won't have a big impact on weaker foes, and it's not like non-casters often get any area effect abilities. But it does mean that it's likely going to be an option that isn't used all that regularly.

Exactly, which is why I find the playtest level 6 feature wildly underwhelming. Its a big area and its cheaper, but it barely scales past level 6 and at a maximum of 3d12 (19.5) average damage, it doesn't even do more damage than fireball. You can avoid having your damage resisted, but unless you're fighting very weak enemies, you're likely not putting anything down.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Let's see, the playtest 4elements lv6 Environmental Blast is...

• 20ft radius
• selectable element
• 3d8 dmg, halved on save
• not upcastable

It certainly makes the lv11 Fireball look amazing. But... what if you could do it as a bonus action?

 

[Stalker0]

I mean, let's look at Fireball at level 11 by itself. Without upcasting, it's 28 damage on average (14 on a save). Upcasted to level 6 (if one were inclined to do such a thing) brings that up to 38.5 (19 on a save). So at first blush, the area and damage might seem pretty good for the 4 Elements Monk- though at it's 2014 cost of 4 ki, that's certainly debatable, especially since the Monk can't upcast it to level 6 but only level 4 (at a cost of 5 ki).

Actual spellcasters might stop stocking it entirely at this point. As a point of reference, I looked at the SRD CR 11 foes (I know level 11 ~ CR 11, but it's certainly something you could be fighting well before this point).

Of the 7 monsters presented, the Efreeti, the Horned Devil, and the Remorhaz are simply immune to Fireball. The average hit points of the remaining 4 is 178.25, with the Gynosphinx and the Roc being the extreme ends of the spectrum.

Even with better ki costs in 2024 (most likely), Fireball doesn't have a huge impact against these foes. It might be a huge spike in damage for the Monk, but it's costly and potentially difficult to use in some fights (as it is for anyone who uses it).

Personally, I'm on the fence. My Wizard rarely uses Fireball at level 7, though I have been facing devils and magic resistant foes lately, so that likely colors my perception. In the games I've played, I wouldn't be thrilled with Fireball at level 11- even if it's something I wouldn't normally have access to.

But on the other hand, it could be campaign dependent. Big areas with weaker foes who aren't fireproof? Being able to Fireball once or twice a battle might be decent, especially if you can nap for an hour to regain it (though at the cost of other cool things you might wish to do).

The gripping hand, well, I've seen a Fireball fail to kill a CR 1 Bugbear who failed his save, That doesn't mean it won't have a big impact on weaker foes, and it's not like non-casters often get any area effect abilities. But it does mean that it's likely going to be an option that isn't used all that regularly.

If your facing equal cr small single monsters than no you shouldn’t use fireball, that’s not the point. The entire point is to use it against groups of weaker monsters.

And towards that point what area effect spell does as much damage for a caster AND is as cheap to cast? Sure you might get some mighty big blast 6th level spell….once a day. You have far more 3rd level slots at your disposal

 

[James Gasik]

Again, like I said, it seems pretty campaign dependent. The game I'm playing in, "weaker" foes at even level 7 aren't even going to be reduced to half hit points by Fireball, so I'm not seeing how useful this power would be at level 11.

But if for whatever reason, mobs of CR 2 or less critters are still prevalent to your level 11 Monk, then yeah, this might be worth the 4-5 Ki.

Now as to what other spells you could use against weak foes, it depends. If you want to kill them, then yeah, it's Fireball or something higher level that either does more damage or has larger area- Sickening Radiance, Cone of Cold, Circle of Death. However, especially with your higher save DC's against the relatively lower DC's of weak critters, you only need to stall them while having your martials murder them, even at low levels, Web, Sleet Storm, and Stinking Cloud can be very effective.

Especially in the Monk's case, there's no reason they couldn't get something bigger than Fireball to work with. Burning all your Ki gets you 2 9d6 Fireballs/short rest, leaving you with your basic 3 attacks per turn and nothing fancy.

Meanwhile, the Warlock at level 11 could use all three Pact Slots for 10d6 Fireballs (or a 4th or 5th-level spell) per short rest, and have their Eldritch Blast to fall back on, which is ranged, also has three attacks, and does d10+5 (probably) vs. the Monk's d8+5. Plus rider effects like Push or Pull.

It's nice to have the option for Fireball, but I don't see it as a particularly fantastic one.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I mean, let's look at Fireball at level 11 by itself. Without upcasting, it's 28 damage on average (14 on a save). Upcasted to level 6 (if one were inclined to do such a thing) brings that up to 38.5 (19 on a save). So at first blush, the area and damage might seem pretty good for the 4 Elements Monk- though at it's 2014 cost of 4 ki, that's certainly debatable, especially since the Monk can't upcast it to level 6 but only level 4 (at a cost of 5 ki).

Actual spellcasters might stop stocking it entirely at this point. As a point of reference, I looked at the SRD CR 11 foes (I know level 11 ~ CR 11, but it's certainly something you could be fighting well before this point).

Of the 7 monsters presented, the Efreeti, the Horned Devil, and the Remorhaz are simply immune to Fireball. The average hit points of the remaining 4 is 178.25, with the Gynosphinx and the Roc being the extreme ends of the spectrum.

Even with better ki costs in 2024 (most likely), Fireball doesn't have a huge impact against these foes. It might be a huge spike in damage for the Monk, but it's costly and potentially difficult to use in some fights (as it is for anyone who uses it).

Personally, I'm on the fence. My Wizard rarely uses Fireball at level 7, though I have been facing devils and magic resistant foes lately, so that likely colors my perception. In the games I've played, I wouldn't be thrilled with Fireball at level 11- even if it's something I wouldn't normally have access to.

But on the other hand, it could be campaign dependent. Big areas with weaker foes who aren't fireproof? Being able to Fireball once or twice a battle might be decent, especially if you can nap for an hour to regain it (though at the cost of other cool things you might wish to do).

The gripping hand, well, I've seen a Fireball fail to kill a CR 1 Bugbear who failed his save, That doesn't mean it won't have a big impact on weaker foes, and it's not like non-casters often get any area effect abilities. But it does mean that it's likely going to be an option that isn't used all that regularly.

If you use fireball at that level to damage a single high level foe, you do it wrong.
It is its ability to clear a quite big area of minons (like orcs) that are still annoying to deal with of all you can do is single target damage.

If that is no concern in your games, the utility of fireball is way lower.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Exactly, which is why I find the playtest level 6 feature wildly underwhelming. Its a big area and its cheaper, but it barely scales past level 6 and at a maximum of 3d12 (19.5) average damage, it doesn't even do more damage than fireball. You can avoid having your damage resisted, but unless you're fighting very weak enemies, you're likely not putting anything down.

Same argumentation. 19.5 against lower than level 1 foes is usually enough to drop them on a failed save. A single attack of your fists usually is not enough to drop a single minion.

The new monk can also attack 3 times on top of dealing that damage. So it is a significant increase in power in the cases where it is relevant.

(just note that since tasha's, a monk could at least attack once for free after casting fireball).

 

[James Gasik]

If you use fireball at that level to damage a single high level foe, you do it wrong.
It is its ability to clear a quite big area of minons (like orcs) that are still annoying to deal with of all you can do is single target damage.

If that is no concern in your games, the utility of fireball is way lower.

Exactly, I haven't run into large groups of Orcs with my Wizard since I got Fireball, lol, but if I did, I'd use it. Or Web. Or Sleet Storm. Or something else.

Then again, I might say "eh, they is Orcs, I should be conserving my spell slots. The Cleric will probably murder them all anyways with Spirit Guardians."

 

[UngeheuerLich]

It's nice to have the option for Fireball, but I don't see it as a particularly fantastic one.

I think this is my main concern with the old 4E monk.
It would have been a nice to have feature. But they are not only ki starved but also only have very few powers to chose from, so their fall back option is all they get...