D&D (2024) Playtest 8 Spell Discussion

Anyone ever think that the Reactions represent an intended narrativist, gamist design where even though you as a player make a choice after the trigger, that represents your PC having the insight or foresight to have made that choice in the split-second needed beforehand? So it just works without requiring an argument over perception?
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Anyone ever think that the Reactions represent an intended narrativist, gamist design where even though you as a player make a choice after the trigger, that represents your PC having the insight or foresight to have made that choice in the split-second needed beforehand? So it just works without requiring an argument over perception?
Yeah. Also that reminds me. Despite taking turns in a round in reallife, in game, all of the actions are happening simultaneously.

Reactions represent successfully avoiding what is simultaneously about to happen.
 

While talking or not talking is binary, you are engaging in a False Dichotomy there by trying to limit it to those two. In the true range we have shouting, talking loudly, talking, talking quietly, whispering and not talking. There are probably some others in there as well. I'm not sure how many distinct sound levels of talking there are.

When I pointed out that whispering and not talking, you know, the subject of this discussion, were both designed to avoid detection of spellcasting, you didn't care what the point was. Probably because it destroys your position.

You the engaged in grossly(I mean it wasn't even your typical very clear perversion) perverting what I said so I called you out on it.

No, it does not destroy my position that there is something you can do to ATTEMPT to avoid detection and something that AUTOMATICALLY avoids detection. And it is not a False Dichotomy to point out that those two things are different. In fact, it seems to be a point you yourself want to avoid.

There's no ad hominem in calling you out on your Strawmen. Sorry bud.

Keep telling yourself that Friendo, but carrying over grudges from other conversations doesn't look good.

The general loud enough to be heard verbals, yes.

The general that you need to speak to cast.

You are aware that when bards sing spells are not just singing Pearl Jam, right. They sing the literal mystical words of creation mixed in with Pearl Jam. Others can hear those mystical words of creation.

"Bards say that the multiverse was spoken into existence, that the words of the gods gave it shape, and that echoes of these primordial Words of Creation still resound throughout the cosmos. The music of bards is an attempt to snatch and harness those echoes, subtly woven into their spells and powers."

The game is designed around verbals being heard over the din of combat.

Interesting. So how can you tell that those are words of creation and not the bard asking for his Granny in Primordial? Are you stating that all casters of Counterspell must have knowledge of the Mystical Words of Creation to Counterspell Bards, or that Counterspell magically gives you that knowledge?

Is it? Show me where it explicitly says anywhere in any book that deaf wizards can counterspell a verbal only spell from someone 60 feet behind them that they don't see because they didn't hear that caster. Counterspell gives no magical knowledge of spells being cast.

You have to know that the person you are seeing is casting a spell, which short of a feat is impossible if you can't hear the verbal only spell being cast. Otherwise you aren't seeing someone cast a spell. You are only seeing someone whisper something.

You haven't shown the explicit language in Counterspell that gives universally perfect knowledge of everyone within 60 feet who is casting a spell. You can't infer anything and have it be RAW. You have to have explicitly written language for it to be RAW.

There is no explicit rules text that states you need to know the person you are looking at is casting a spell either. Feeblemind had to add specific language that a 1 Int creature couldn't cast spells. If you have an INT of one from any other effect, you could despite being unable to read, speak, or generally recognize objects, still be capable of casting Counterspell to stop a spell.

Why? How? I can't explain magic to you, I can only show you that the rules say you can counterspell any creature you can see that casts a spell within 60 ft of you. Regardless of whether or not you are deaf or if you are capable of understanding what magic even is.

This is just plain false. I don't have to know how motorcycles work in order to know that one can't fly.

And would you expect someone who lived underwater and had never seen or considered Air to understand what flight is, let alone why a motorcycle can't do it?

I counted. After 10 pages it goes into the guidelines on creating monsters, classes, etc. Those are not optional rules.

And we've already established we are talking about Rules and RAW, not optional rules. Thank you for telling me how you skewed the data though, before I had to go looking for myself.

With no core rules, yes. The DMG has a few pages of optional rules in it and the MM has no rules in it.

Show me one real rule. Not something that interacts with real rules from the PHB, but a real rule.

Burrow Speed
Tremorsense
Proficiency Bonus by Challenge Rating
XP by Challenge Rating
Recharge X-Y mechanic definition
Lair Action rules
Legendary Resistance
The effects of a Chuul's Tentacle
Cloaker's Phantasm ability
Intellect Devourer's Body Thief ability
Player Characters as Lycanthropes
Rules for Swarms

You're not arguing anything based on any rule at the moment. You are as you admit above, just making assumptions about magic that don't hold up.

Please explain to me how the text of Counterspell is not a rule.
 

Anyone ever think that the Reactions represent an intended narrativist, gamist design where even though you as a player make a choice after the trigger, that represents your PC having the insight or foresight to have made that choice in the split-second needed beforehand? So it just works without requiring an argument over perception?

Yes, this is how I usually handle it narratively.
 

No, it does not destroy my position that there is something you can do to ATTEMPT to avoid detection and something that AUTOMATICALLY avoids detection. And it is not a False Dichotomy to point out that those two things are different. In fact, it seems to be a point you yourself want to avoid.
It is when there are more than two options.
Keep telling yourself that Friendo, but carrying over grudges from other conversations doesn't look good.
So again, you have no right or ability to tell me my motivations. I get to tell you what they are and that's that. There is no grudge or attack going on. I'm simply counting the number of times you twist what I say to suit your response.
Interesting. So how can you tell that those are words of creation and not the bard asking for his Granny in Primordial? Are you stating that all casters of Counterspell must have knowledge of the Mystical Words of Creation to Counterspell Bards, or that Counterspell magically gives you that knowledge?
Because mystical words are mystical, which is the requirement for verbals. Look it up in the actual rule book on page 203.
There is no explicit rules text that states you need to know the person you are looking at is casting a spell either. Feeblemind had to add specific language that a 1 Int creature couldn't cast spells. If you have an INT of one from any other effect, you could despite being unable to read, speak, or generally recognize objects, still be capable of casting Counterspell to stop a spell.
What does Feeblemind have to do with anything we are discussing. "Hey look, this very different explicit limitation over there means that my assumption over here is correct" fails on its face as a valid argument.
Why? How? I can't explain magic to you, I can only show you that the rules say you can counterspell any creature you can see that casts a spell within 60 ft of you. Regardless of whether or not you are deaf or if you are capable of understanding what magic even is.
So you know that there is no actual magic, right? It's just rules in a game and those rules don't say that you can do what you are arguing that they can do. You are assuming what RAW is and that again fails on its face.
And would you expect someone who lived underwater and had never seen or considered Air to understand what flight is, let alone why a motorcycle can't do it?
I've seen D&D magic for 40 years. 🤷‍♂️
Burrow Speed
PHB rule on speed, so not an MM rule.
Tremorsense
MM guideline, so not a MM rule.
Proficiency Bonus by Challenge Rating
DMG guideline, so not an MM rule.
XP by Challenge Rating
DMG guideline, so not an MM rule.
Recharge X-Y mechanic definition
MM guideline, so not an MM rule.
Lair Action rules
Legendary Resistance
The effects of a Chuul's Tentacle
Cloaker's Phantasm ability
Intellect Devourer's Body Thief ability
Player Characters as Lycanthropes
Rules for Swarms
And on and on. We know from the DMG that all the rules from the core books are in the PHB. The rest are guidelines. You can't get around that by listing off guidelines.
Please explain to me how the text of Counterspell is not a rule.
There is no text in counterspell that lets you automatically know when someone within 60 feet is casting a spell, even if you can see the caster. None. Not even a teensy weensy little bit.

Absent that text, you need to be able to identify when someone within 60 feet of you is casting a spell in a different manner, which brings us to what you can or cannot tell from your senses.
 

Anyone ever think that the Reactions represent an intended narrativist, gamist design where even though you as a player make a choice after the trigger, that represents your PC having the insight or foresight to have made that choice in the split-second needed beforehand? So it just works without requiring an argument over perception?
That's not how 1e-3e or 5e work by default. I don't know about 4e. You can play it that way for sure, but the editions I name are designed for rolls to matter and not for players to just invent why they succeed at something.
 

That's not how 1e-3e or 5e work by default. I don't know about 4e. You can play it that way for sure, but the editions I name are designed for rolls to matter and not for players to just invent why they succeed at something.
Isn't that exactly how the Shield spell works? The attack actually hits you, then you cast a Shield as a reaction, and presto, "oh-no-it-didn't!"
 

Isn't that exactly how the Shield spell works? The attack actually hits you, then you cast a Shield as a reaction, and presto, "oh-no-it-didn't!"
It has to rewind time by about a second. It doesn't make any sense that there would be a single instance or two where the game suddenly becomes narrativist. It would have made me much happier if they had just written it better and not involved a time rewind.
 

It is when there are more than two options.

And we were only talking about two of them, as you mentioned. I don't need to discuss tap dancing either.

So again, you have no right or ability to tell me my motivations. I get to tell you what they are and that's that. There is no grudge or attack going on. I'm simply counting the number of times you twist what I say to suit your response.

Sure sure, I don't care that you are tallying every grievance you have against me, and carrying it between the threads.

Because mystical words are mystical, which is the requirement for verbals. Look it up in the actual rule book on page 203.

Mystical means something relating to the occult or magical (to simplify it). Please explain to me how the Language of Fire is not a mystical language full of mystical words. And, how do you know they are mystical words that mean magic and not other mystical words? Can't someone ask for their Granny using the mystical word language of creation?

What does Feeblemind have to do with anything we are discussing. "Hey look, this very different explicit limitation over there means that my assumption over here is correct" fails on its face as a valid argument.

I explained it in the post, but I will explain it to you again.

Having an intelligence score of 1, which would make you mute, illiterate, and potentially incapable of recognizing shapes does not prevent you from Counterspelling. This is despite the fact that you would not even recognize what magic is. We know this is true, because Feeblemind must specifically call out to us that you cannot cast spells while feebleminded.

Unless you would like to add a stipulation that you must be intelligent enough to recognize spellcasting to be allowed to cast counterspell, which is yet another limitation that is not present in the spell itself.

So you know that there is no actual magic, right? It's just rules in a game and those rules don't say that you can do what you are arguing that they can do. You are assuming what RAW is and that again fails on its face.

I've seen D&D magic for 40 years. 🤷‍♂️

And the rules say that to cast Counterspell, you must see the creature casting the spell. They do not say that you need to hear them. I am simply stating that exact fact. You are trying to use things not in the rules based in IRL logic, which does not apply to a non-euclidean world of magic.

PHB rule on speed, so not an MM rule.

False. Burrow speed does not show up a single time in the PHB, and it has unique rules not covered in normal movement rules.

MM guideline, so not a MM rule.

False. Tremorsense is a special sense, just like Darkvision. The text in the MM are the rules for how that sense works.

DMG guideline, so not an MM rule.

DMG guideline, so not an MM rule.

False. They are in the Monster Manual, which was printed before the Dungeon Master's Guide. Text appearing in the MM first cannot be attributed to the DMG. Secondly, they are as much rules as the rules for Proficiency by Level and XP for Leveling in the PHB.

MM guideline, so not an MM rule.

False. This is a description of a rule for how abilities may recharge. It is as much a rule as abilities recharging on a short rest is a rule, or the Wild Sorcerer's Wild Surge recharging is a rule.

And on and on. We know from the DMG that all the rules from the core books are in the PHB. The rest are guidelines. You can't get around that by listing off guidelines.

No, you are wrong. Not all of the rules are in the PHB, as demonstrated. You cannot simply re-categorize things you don't like.

There is no text in counterspell that lets you automatically know when someone within 60 feet is casting a spell, even if you can see the caster. None. Not even a teensy weensy little bit.

Absent that text, you need to be able to identify when someone within 60 feet of you is casting a spell in a different manner, which brings us to what you can or cannot tell from your senses.

There is no text in Counterspell that says you need to "know" when someone is casting a spell. You can counterspell a target that you can see casting a spell within 60 ft. If you are capable of taking reactions and a visible creature casts a spell within 60 ft, you can counterspell.

You adding additional requirements is not the rules, that is you adding homebrew.

Now, again, please explain to me how the text of Counterspell does not count as a rule
 

Sure sure, I don't care that you are tallying every grievance you have against me, and carrying it between the threads.
There are no grievances. I'm doing it to teach you since you haven't seemed to get it any other way. You don't get to twist my words and invent stuff for me. That applies to this as well. You don't get to invent grievances. 🤷‍♂️
Mystical means something relating to the occult or magical (to simplify it). Please explain to me how the Language of Fire is not a mystical language full of mystical words. And, how do you know they are mystical words that mean magic and not other mystical words? Can't someone ask for their Granny using the mystical word language of creation?
Exactly. Mystical(magical) words. They exist in verbal wizard spells. They exist in verbal clerical spells. And they exist in the verbal singing of bards. Easy to recognize for those who are trained.

And no, you cannot ask for granny using the magical words of creation. Those trigger power and would be spellcasting. They are not a language to be spoken. Athrrak(as a made up example) is a magical word used in the sleep spell. It does not have a meaning like granny.
Having an intelligence score of 1, which would make you mute, illiterate, and potentially incapable of recognizing shapes does not prevent you from Counterspelling. This is despite the fact that you would not even recognize what magic is. We know this is true, because Feeblemind must specifically call out to us that you cannot cast spells while feebleminded.
You can't get to 1 without feeblemind or some other DM inflicted status. If a DM brings the wizard to 1, then he will probably apply all the same problems. You're still comparing apples and oranges.

One of the worst things about 5e is removing minimum stat requirements for spellcasting. It's not just lame, it's stupid for a wizard to be running around casting spells with a 3 int(or any intelligence penalty really).
Unless you would like to add a stipulation that you must be intelligent enough to recognize spellcasting to be allowed to cast counterspell, which is yet another limitation that is not present in the spell itself.
While I would rule a 3 intelligence as being too stupid to recognize spellcasting, there is no actual rule that says so.
And the rules say that to cast Counterspell, you must see the creature casting the spell. They do not say that you need to hear them. I am simply stating that exact fact. You are trying to use things not in the rules based in IRL logic, which does not apply to a non-euclidean world of magic.
You can ignore the bolded all you like, but continuing to ignore it doesn't change the requirement. You have to KNOW it's casting a spell, which counterspell doesn't provide you one iota of knowledge about.
False. Burrow speed does not show up a single time in the PHB, and it has unique rules not covered in normal movement rules.
True is not false. It doesn't need to be in the PHB outside of general movement, because unlike swimming, climbing and crawling, it has no movement penalties. Further, you are ignoring the MM itself to argue this wrong position.

"SPEED
A monster's speed tells you how far i t can move on its turn. For more information on speed, see the Player's Handbook.

All creatures have a walking speed, simply called the monster's speed. Creatures that have no form of groundbased locomotion have a walking speed of 0 feet.

Some creatures have one or more of the following additional movement modes."

Burrowing uses the PHB speed rules along with the MM guidelines.
False. Tremorsense is a special sense, just like Darkvision. The text in the MM are the rules for how that sense works.
Yes. The guidelines there suggest how it works.
False. They are in the Monster Manual, which was printed before the Dungeon Master's Guide. Text appearing in the MM first cannot be attributed to the DMG. Secondly, they are as much rules as the rules for Proficiency by Level and XP for Leveling in the PHB.
Doesn't matter which came first. The chicken and egg are both guidelines. 🤷‍♂️
False. This is a description of a rule for how abilities may recharge. It is as much a rule as abilities recharging on a short rest is a rule, or the Wild Sorcerer's Wild Surge recharging is a rule.
Suggestion on how it recharges. The MM is, by RAW(if you're counting the MM and DMG as rules instead of what the game says), guidelines.

You still haven't solved that dilemma by the way. If the MM and DMG are RAW, then RAW says that both are guidelines and only the PHB has the rules needed to play the game. If they are not RAW, then they are guidelines and only the PHB has the rules needed to play the game. You're in a catch 22.
No, you are wrong. Not all of the rules are in the PHB, as demonstrated. You cannot simply re-categorize things you don't like.
Per the DMG the rules needed to play the game are there. None of the optional rules in the DMG or splatbooks are needed to run the game. Not one.

Take your own advice and stop trying to recategorize the guidelines in the DMG and MM as rules.
There is no text in Counterspell that says you need to "know" when someone is casting a spell. You can counterspell a target that you can see casting a spell within 60 ft. If you are capable of taking reactions and a visible creature casts a spell within 60 ft, you can counterspell.
Yes there is. You have to see someone casting a spell. Unless you know it's a spell, you aren't seeing someone cast a spell. You are only seeing someone say something.
Now, again, please explain to me how the text of Counterspell does not count as a rule
Provide me where it says that counterspell provides perfect knowledge of all spellcasting within 60 feet. Show me the text and I will admit that that text is a rule. If you can't show it, it doesn't exist and is not a rule.
 

Remove ads

Top