D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

[soviet]

Because it's very important that wizards be immune to clever battlefield manoeuvres performed by warriors! They're more realistic that way.

Jocks never outsmart nerds

 

[Micah Sweet]

What do you mean? They are making an attack. They must have line of effect to their enemies, whom they can see (as per the ability description). It seems obvious to me that they're doing stuff, which probably includes moving their body and interacting with their opponents.

By grabbing them, perhaps? By poking them with a sword? I am not a 7th level fighter, but my understanding is that one thing skilled and strong warriors are good at is using their own movements and bodies to force movements and reactions from their enemies.

I don't know how it is supposed to be more realistic that an invisible, silent warrior is unable to interact with enemies.

How are they doing those things without leaving their space?

 

[pemerton]

The onus is on the player to explain what they're doing though, right? You don't expect players to just say 'I use come and get it' with no other explanation, especially where it might not be obvious how it would work. Just like you probably wouldn't accept 'I use diplomacy' with no other explanation.

I agree that something like paralysis probably shouldn't work, unless there's a very good explanation offered. But the sleeping one is easy - I wake them up. The incorporeal one is easy - I say something to enrage/lure them. The people are unaware of you one is easy - I make them aware of me. The entangled one is easy - they find a way to get out, or I release them.

I played a 4e fighter with Come and Get It and I always found a good justification. I used it against some sword wraiths by drawing on the power of my magic sword which has anti-undead powers. I used it against some wolf monsters by using my barbarian multiclass stuff to emit a primal roar of challenge against them. I don't recall an instance where I used it and there wasn't a decent explanation.

The fighter in my main 4e game mostly fought with a polearm. He would wrongfoot his foes.

I remember the first time he used CaGI. He was across a hall from some goblin archers. I had described them retreating down some stairs. He used Mighty Sprint to cross the hall, and then used CaGI - I described some goblins, being caught on the stairs behind their allies, turning around and running back up to try and defend themselves against this attacking Dwarf.

Of course none of that makes sense in a stop motion world where every puppet can see the exact length of the strings on every other puppet. But because our fiction was taking place in a world more like that of LotR or REH's Conan, it made perfect sense.

 

[billd91]

I just thought of Come and Get It as

View attachment 340560

Indiana Jones does NOT "Come and Get It"

 

[soviet]

How are they doing those things without leaving their space?

Who says they didn't leave their space?

 

[Micah Sweet]

The onus is on the player to explain what they're doing though, right? You don't expect players to just say 'I use come and get it' with no other explanation, especially where it might not be obvious how it would work. Just like you probably wouldn't accept 'I use diplomacy' with no other explanation.

I agree that something like paralysis probably shouldn't work, unless there's a very good explanation offered. But the sleeping one is easy - I wake them up. The incorporeal one is easy - I say something to enrage/lure them. The people are unaware of you one is easy - I make them aware of me. The entangled one is easy - they find a way to get out, or I release them.

I played a 4e fighter with Come and Get It and I always found a good justification. I used it against some sword wraiths by drawing on the power of my magic sword which has anti-undead powers. I used it against some wolf monsters by using my barbarian multiclass stuff to emit a primal roar of challenge against them. I don't recall an instance where I used it and there wasn't a decent explanation.

Again, that's the whole problem I have with 4e. The rules widget is king, so the players have to make it make sense (if they care to; there's no obligation), and there's nothing else to it. The explanation doesn't affect anything that's happening when the rules widget is used, so you're not exactly encouraged to put much effort into it.

I know for some this is no problem at all, perhaps to such a degree that it's hard to fathom other points of view. But believe me, those other points of view exist.

 

[Manbearcat]

View attachment 340562
Indiana Jones does NOT "Come and Get It"

Indiana Jones Trait:

* I'm in a movie (not a TTRPG) and I'm the protagonist.

or

* Immune to Melee or Ranged Forced Movement (like Swarms...which is a Trait, which are exceptions in the exception-based design engine of 4e, that you can add to whatever at your discretion).

or

* I've got a high Will defense and I rolled well enough to pass the one time this happened onscreen (and/or I've got an Immediate Action that gives me a bonus to all defenses or +4 to Will or reroll a failure or to ignore Forced Movement or whatever).

---

We're still doing this 15 years later!

Its SOOOOOO important that 4e is dumb and terrible and nonsensical!

 

[Micah Sweet]

As I said, you don't seem to be familiar with the forced movement rules. If there is an obstacle between the fighter and the archer (like a castle wall) then no forced movement occurs.

And when you say "distance" you mean 10 feet - that is, the two squares between the fighter's position and the enemy's position.

If the archer is behind a low wall that doesn't constitute an obstacle, I would imagine the fighter leapt up and knocked them down! (The archer gets a saving throw, as per the rules for forced movement over an edge.)

You could be standing at the base of a ten-foot wall, with an archer standing atop it, and when you use that power the archer, if they fail their save, basically falls off the wall on top of you so the fighter can reach him to make an attack.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Who says they didn't leave their space?

The power doesn't include movement from their space, so I guess 4e says that.

 

[Gammadoodler]

From a distance? And what about the archer on the wall I mentioned? Do they just throw themselves off it to get closer to the fighter?

Didn't play 4e, so googling things..the distance appears to be "burst 3", which appears to correlate to within 3 five-foot squares of the fighter.

I haven't seen a lot of castles, but I can buy a 15 ft ladder at Home Depot, and I feel like they don't scale the equipment at Home Depot for medieval sieges?