D&D (2024) 2024 needs to end 2014's passive aggressive efforts to remove magic items & other elements from d&d

[James Gasik]

Different games can have various attributes in various numbers.

D&D needs, maybe not precisely six, but probably five. Otherwise the reduction and streamlining kills the specificity, the idiosyncrasies that make up the texture of playing D&D instead of some other game.

Put simply, it's in the DNA of the game that the wizard and the cleric doesn't use the same stat. Neither does the fighter and the rogue. If those four classes are all you aim for, then sure you only need four attributes.

Boiling down 3-18 values into just modifiers is an obvious change that could have been done years ago, and indeed was done years ago by various clones. (Was Blue Rose one of the earlier ones?)

Actually changing the set of six attributes (keeping the number but changing the names and what they cover) is, I think, a lost cause. You would lose much more than you would gain. Yes, it could improve the game, but no, it's not worth the loss in perceived "D&D-ishness".

I wonder if that's why Comeliness never caught on. Because the six stats are an enshrined D&D-ism.

Not that Comeliness was a fantastic idea, mind you, lol.

 

[Horwath]

Just saw Treantmonks vid on DC20. And how it reduces attributes to just four.

Man, I don't know. All the D&D clones that try to reduce attributes miss one super important thing:

You need many attributes to support different classes. And a class-less D&D just isn't D&D at all.

Why do you need more attributes to support different classes?

and I agree that D&D can work maybe even better with 4 instead of 6 abilities

STR: melee&thrown attack and damage, carry capacity, armor capacity, current STR&CON saves, bonus HP, Skills: Athletics
DEX: ranged&finesse attack and damage, AC bonus, current DEX saves, Skills: Acrobatics, Stealth, Thievery
WILL: spell DC, attack and damage, current INT, WIS and CHA saves, concetration
CUNNING: Initiative, bonus skills, tools, weapons and languages, Skills: all current Int, Wis and Cha skills.

less total abilities, more of a penalty if you dump some score.

 

[Yaarel]

Regarding the abilities, eight work best, and balance with each other well. They organize into four pairs.

PHYSICAL
• Strength-Constitution
• Dexterity-Athletics
MENTAL
• Intelligence-Perception
• Charisma-Wisdom

 

[CapnZapp]

I wonder if that's why Comeliness never caught on. Because the six stats are an enshrined D&D-ism.

Not that Comeliness was a fantastic idea, mind you, lol.

Comeliness is a dodgy term.

But I could definitely see myself adding Appearance as a seventh ability score without my players getting all worked up about it. Because I would explain they simply decide on the value themselves. If they want a 3, write down 3. If they prefer an 18, that's okay too.

Then this would only be used for superficial first impressions. Like if a hero spends an evening at the tavern looking to hook up.

(Hint: don't choose 18 if you get bothered or offended by random NPCs striking up discussion! Especially in those cases where it isn't socially acceptable to end a conversation with Fireball)

Hollywood is filled with people that are traditionally beautiful. But Appearance 18 definitely does not mean Charisma 18, as a quick look at any reality show or soap filled with D-listers will tell you.

 

[CapnZapp]

Why do you need more attributes to support different classes?

Because two classes that need exactly the same attribute or attributes will feel similar.

With more attributes you can avoid this. If a Farmer needs high Strength and Constitution and medium Wisdom, that feels distinct from, I dunno, a Hunter, that needs a (slightly) different set of attributes. Maybe high Wisdom and Constitution and only medium Strength.

It's a form of mechanical texture. The value of this is often underestimated. It just won't feel the same if Farmer and Hunter both wants high values in exactly the same (set of) attributes.




(Obviously you CAN support a hundred classes with only a single attribute, so I'll assume you didn't read my statement literally.)

 

[Horwath]

Because two classes that need exactly the same attribute or attributes will feel similar.

With more attributes you can avoid this. If a Farmer needs high Strength and Constitution and medium Wisdom, that feels distinct from, I dunno, a Hunter, that needs a (slightly) different set of attributes. Maybe high Wisdom and Constitution and only medium Strength.

It's a form of mechanical texture. The value of this is often underestimated. It just won't feel the same if Farmer and Hunter both wants high values in exactly the same (set of) attributes.




(Obviously you CAN support a hundred classes with only a single attribute, so I'll assume you didn't read my statement literally.)

Sure, you can avoid, but do you really?

Rogue, ranger, monk, dex-based fighter all work great with exactly the same abilities, unless you take some subclass that focuses too much on a class tertiary ability.

 

[Yaarel]

I feel Comeliness works best as a Background Feat, granting while in sight Persuasion advantage and inflicting Charm save disadvantage.

Oppositely, Hideousness is likewise a Background Feat, granting while in sight Intimidation advantage and inflicting Fear save disadvantage.

 

[CapnZapp]

Sure, you can avoid, but do you really?

Rogue, ranger, monk, dex-based fighter all work great with exactly the same abilities, unless you take some subclass that focuses too much on a class tertiary ability.

Now you are assuming my thesis is invalidated because there exists two classes with the same set of abilities.

That is not true.

I argued that with too few abilities you cannot achieve enough distinctiveness. Having to achieve total distinctiveness is a straw man.

Four abilities is, imo, too few for the D&D feeling to materialize. Five, maybe.

But the real question is: why on earth to people think their game isn't fatally wounded when they change the abilities??

If you explicitly try to draw attention as "D&D 6th edition" as DC20 does, but an observer will immediately notice how Might, Agility, Charisma, Intelligence just isn't even close to D&D, are you really making a savvy marketing move?

 

[CapnZapp]

I feel Comeliness works best as a Background Feat, granting while in sight Persuasion advantage and inflicting Charm save disadvantage.

Oppositely, Hideousness is likewise a Background Feat, granting while in sight Intimidation advantage and inflicting Fear save disadvantage.

Sure, if you're content with just the binary (trinary?) choice between being Attractive and not being Attractive.

 

[Yaarel]

Sure, if you're content with just the binary (trinary?) choice between being Attractive and not being Attractive.

I see the feats more as superhumanly beautiful versus superhumanly ugly.

Everything else is normal.

Charisma is more important in the esthetic sense of self-presentation and sense of style.

For being "fit", I refer to Constitution.