D&D General Does D&D (and RPGs in general) Need Edition Resets?

Yeah, I know, and I have been saying thats ridiculous. Nobody is saying the game will make no changes from here until forever. You are going to get updates that will add and change the game, just incrementally. Also, who knows maybe folks are right and 5E is broken garbage and folks will eventually come around. I dont think so though.
Also, gotta love how any criticism whatsoever is necessarily saying absolutely everything about 5e must be "broken garbage."

Because it's totally impossible for something to have both good elements and bad ones. It's totally impossible for people to like and enjoy a product for what it does well and be even the tiniest bit disappointed, frustrated, annoyed, or put off by what it does poorly. Every product must either be a work of sheer, unmitigated genius with nary a blemish and thus axiomatically will sell like hotcakes, or a work of sheer, unmitigated failure with not a single positive element and thus axiomatically rejected by all and sundry.

Couldn't possibly be the case that something could succeed (or fail) for reasons unrelated to its design and/or content. It is a flagrant contradiction to claim that something can sell widely or attain broad appeal despite some of what is in it, rather than because of every single thing in it.
 

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Basically. I'd be surprised if we won't see some tweaks to how CR is handled in the 2024 books, while not completely throwing out what's come before. My guess is monsters in the 2024 monster book will more accurately reflect their challenge (maybe we get a new way of building encounters?) while stuff from before will continue to just be a best guess that can still be used since the rest of the monster's mechanics will be just fine in the 2024 rule revisions. A step forward while not throwing out what came before.
That seems like a reasonable take. Are you sure you don't want to compare the CR problem to people dying in automobiles?
 

Just because they do only a slight revision now does not mean that doing no more than that since BX or 1e would have worked, which to me is the issue we are discussing
I do think if TSR never made the mistake of splitting their base, and never made AD&D, that B/X iterated over time could have gone on indefinitely.
 


Couldn't possibly be the case that something could succeed (or fail) for reasons unrelated to its design and/or content. It is a flagrant contradiction to claim that something can sell widely or attain broad appeal despite some of what is in it, rather than because of every single thing in it.
while certainly possible I'd argue that those successes would be extreme outliers with most falling somewhere in a more predictable reason for success, design and content plus hitting at the right time for example. Arguing the extreme outlier is almost always a good way to get discounted. Weird random patterns drive unlikely stuff in the real world, but it's definitely not the norm.
 

Are you sure you prefer to use ad hominem rather than actually engage in meaningful discussion?
You need to brush up on your fallacies, this wanst an ad hominem. You should have went with argumentum ad lapidem, but I dont really think it fits. Comparing CR issues to automobile issues that killed people is absurd. Unless, of course, we are talking about PCs dying to the CR issue, then I suppose thats different. :unsure:
 

You need to brush up on your fallacies, this wanst an ad hominem. You should have went with argumentum ad lapidem, but I dont really think it fits. Comparing CR issues to automobile issues that killed people is absurd. Unless, of course, we are talking about PCs dying to the CR issue, then I suppose thats different. :unsure:
That was the intent, yes. I have seen at least three campaigns fail because of TPKs that caught the DM completely by surprise. And even the designers themselves saw that happen with the ghoul combat that was meant to show off the system, and instead resulted in a completely unforeseen TPK. (And, thereafter, a major change to how saving throws work, who'd have thought?!)
 


Does D&D need a clean slate ever-so-often to reset the board and introduce new ideas and build things from the ground up?
No, the game doesn't need it.

Each edition is very much fully playable, and its presumed "problems" could all become non-problems if the DMs and players together really wanted to. But there's a culture around RPGs and D&D, of "I know better what they game should be" that constantly demands change. For many people, that is the hobby, more important than playing the game itself. And of course, the producers of the game can largely benefit by running the mill of rules updates and new editions.

So what we have because of that after 50 years, is effectively not a single game, but a collection of multiple games, all of which are fully playable by those who want to. Generally speaking, having many games to choose from is a good thing, but it would have been just fine if all editions after the original had been given a different RPG name altogether, instead of keeping it D&D (well it would be have been just fine for everyone except for those who make money off the brand).
 

while certainly possible I'd argue that those successes would be extreme outliers with most falling somewhere in a more predictable reason for success, design and content plus hitting at the right time for example. Arguing the extreme outlier is almost always a good way to get discounted. Weird random patterns drive unlikely stuff in the real world, but it's definitely not the norm.
It is nowhere near as unlikely as you think.

The Model T? Terrible vehicle. Especially for safety, dear God it was incredibly dangerous to drive. But it was cheap, and it was (relatively) rugged, and it was easy to make. Yet there's a reason we don't use plate glass windshields anymore, amongst many other faults in its design.

Windows? Tons of design issues. Still by far the most widely-used OS. But being the first big thing on the market has huge value.

Mcdonald's? I don't think people like it because it's nutritious, environmentally friendly, nor good to its employees, nor even because it's amazingly flavorful. It's cheap, and it uses lots of salt, sugar, fat, and MSG to twiddle all those basic tastebud responses.

EverQuest was the reigning king of MMOs for years, and it had some genuinely terrible design. (My dad played it for quite a long time and became intimately familiar with how hostile it could be to the people playing it.) Yet it was called "EverCrack" in its heyday.

There are many, many, many, MANY reasons why something can be popular, can sell well, can reach a huge audience. Only a portion of those reasons are the actual quality and design of the product itself. And, before I get nasty accusations yet again, yes, some of the design choices of 5e DO contribute to its popularity. But many, many things that have nothing to do with that also contribute: culture shifts, economic environment, changes in media, marketing/word of mouth, world events, etc., etc.

I am of the opinion that a majority, not a massive one but a majority nonetheless, are actually unrelated to what you read between the covers of the 5e PHB, DMG, and MM. (Certainly unrelated to the design quality of the DMG, or should I say general lack thereof.) I am and have been further of the opinion that, as 5e ages, criticisms of what is in it will grow with time. This has been borne out thus far, though I admit much more slowly than my (likely biased) expectations. But it used to be nigh-impossible to make any criticism at all of 5e. That is no longer true, even without factoring in the OGL debacle or other WotC foot-in-mouth disease, and hasn't been true for probably three-ish years now.

Hell, I was making the exact same criticisms of the 5e DMG, eight or nine years ago, that people are now making today. To the point that even avowed 5e fans will get annoyed at the suggestion that people would defend the DMG's faults, e.g. "yes yes we know the DMG isn't great can we move on please", when literally as little as three or four years ago people were doing exactly that, declaring it good or even great and dismissing any criticism as unwarranted and incorrect....often on popularity grounds.

Now, don't mistake me. I get that this is a prediction of future trends, and I am no fortuneteller. But if past is prologue, and if 5.5e is as minimally changed as I expect it to be, then it isn't alarmist in the least to say that five-ish years from now, there will be rather more criticism than there is today, and much of it will center on things that can't be fixed iteratively or gradually.

Which was my thesis.

I even explicitly said, repeatedly, that a balance between stability and change is needed. Too much change and you drive people away. Too much lack of change and people slowly get fed up. Iterative change tries to have its cake and eat it too, and in fairness it actually does a decent job at that. But there are some things it cannot fix, even in principle—and as those things remain fixed points for longer and longer stretches, they will chafe more. That is the nature of the beast.
 

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