D&D 5E Don't Throw 5e Away Because of Hasbro

[Minigiant]

2024 is much too similar from all we’ve seen, maybe in 7 years or so with a real update / 6e

I already predict 6e playtest in 2030 as official 5e is already close to out of ideas that aren't already covered by 3pp.
And the designers already expressed desire to change troublesome elements which were shut down by calls for backwards compatibility.

Games like A5e, TOtV, MCDMRPG, Daggerheart, DC20RPG etc will be watched by WOTC and evaluated how well the "new" ideas similar to the cut ideas the playtest

If the VTT doesn't catch on like gangbusters, I see 6e coming with the VTT supporting 5th and 6th edition with Hasbro cutting their losses on official 5e.

 

[mamba]

Well, I can't really say until the release, we will have to wait and see I guess...

that’s fine, it’s not like I can say it definitely without seeing the new rules either, but going by what was in the UAs I’d say calling them incompatible to the point of invalidating the current SRD and requiring a new one feels rather premature to me

They just got burned, they won’t try again now. In that case they would have been better off to stick to their guns and revoke the OGL (not that I believe they actually could) instead of releasing an SRD under CC

The way the playtest went, the OGL debacle took all the wind out of their sails and any innovation was sacrificed at the altar of absolute compatibility

 

[Art Waring]

that’s fine, it’s not like I can say it definitely without seeing the new rules either, but going by what was in the UAs I’d say calling them incompatible to the point of invalidating the current SRD and requiring a new one feels rather premature to me

No i do agree, I was just pointing out that from what I see, they can still potentially pull the rug out from underneath 3pp's in the future.

They could potentially release another poison-pill OGL/SRD (less likely given the backlash from the original OGL 1.1 release), but they could also potentially release something without any of the previous restrictions, I really don't know, any neither does anyone else.

The real question relies on the issue of trust. Can I trust them to do the right thing? Right now I justifiably don't trust them, and it will take some real time and some real effort to repair the community they damaged with their actions before I could ever trust them again.

 

[Remathilis]

Why not see them as their own awesome independent 5e games that happen to also be compatible with D&D? Let's move D&D and Hasbro out of the hub and into one of the spokes.

For the same reason why Pathfinder was still called D&D 3.75. It's both the origin point for the ruleset AND its biggest part of the market. It's going to be the starting point of most discussions and comparisons. I don't think its avoidable nor it particularly egerious unless your specifically trying to exclude D&D from the conversation.

 

[Remathilis]

This actually supports my theory, that the next SRD/OGL release for 5e-2024 might be a poison-pill, because they really don't want any competition (their actions with the 1.1 OGL scandal have proven that). They already tried to kill the OGL multiple times (by rescinding the d20 STL, the 4e GSL, & the OGL 1.1), how many times does it take for people to see that they (wotc execs, not employees) really hate the idea of open source gaming?

The SRD/CC isn't going to be the choke point. The choke point is going to be D&D Beyond and the VTT. They are willing to cede the Open market and put their eggs into digital tools where they have complete control. I fully suspect they will update the CC SRD to 2024 rules (its free advertising) because they will view electronic support as far more important to them.

 

[Art Waring]

The SRD/CC isn't going to be the choke point. The choke point is going to be D&D Beyond and the VTT. They are willing to cede the Open market and put their eggs into digital tools where they have complete control. I fully suspect they will update the CC SRD to 2024 rules (its free advertising) because they will view electronic support as far more important to them.

I do agree that this is the outcome most likely to happen. DDB & their vtt are being modeled as a walled garden, so it surely fits the model to restrict access to their platform.

I think, however, that from their persistent attempts to destroy the OGL over the past two decades, that I would be remiss to think that they would simply back off from what they (management) have considered to be a thorn in their sides for twenty years (the OGL).

I think that they have opted for the long-term approach instead of a head-on attack on the OGL like last year. What that looks like is anybody's guess.

 

[Remathilis]

I do agree that this is the outcome most likely to happen. DDB & their vtt are being modeled as a walled garden, so it surely fits the model to restrict access to their platform.

I think, however, that from their persistent attempts to destroy the OGL over the past two decades, that I would be remiss to think that they would simply back off from what they (management) have considered to be a thorn in their sides for twenty years (the OGL).

I think that they have opted for the long-term approach instead of a head-on attack on the OGL like last year. What that looks like is anybody's guess.

I wager they are going to cut their losses on it. The juice isn't worth the squeeze and there are too many viable alternatives now.

 

[Art Waring]

I wager they are going to cut their losses on it. The juice isn't worth the squeeze and there are too many viable alternatives now.

Lets hope so. I really do hope that this is all behind us.

 

[mamba]

The SRD/CC isn't going to be the choke point. The choke point is going to be D&D Beyond and the VTT. They are willing to cede the Open market and put their eggs into digital tools where they have complete control. I fully suspect they will update the CC SRD to 2024 rules (its free advertising) because they will view electronic support as far more important to them.

having an SRD and wanting everyone in the walled garden of DDB and VTT is a bit schizophrenic. Why have an SRD when the work created with it is work you exclude from your platform... Not saying this is not where we are headed in the short term, just that it is an inconsistent strategy. One or the other will have to give in the long run

I think, however, that from their persistent attempts to destroy the OGL over the past two decades, that I would be remiss to think that they would simply back off from what they (management) have considered to be a thorn in their sides for twenty years (the OGL).

I think that they have opted for the long-term approach instead of a head-on attack on the OGL like last year. What that looks like is anybody's guess.

to me the long term would be to release an incompatible new version and not provide an SRD for it. Of course this has the risk of possibly creating another Paizo

 

[Art Waring]

having an SRD and wanting everyone in the walled garden of DDB and VTT is a bit schizophrenic. Why have an SRD when the work created with it is work you exclude from your platform... Not saying this is not where we are headed in the short term, just that it is an inconsistent strategy. One or the other will have to give in the long run

Well, there are some distinctions that need to be made here to address that:

1. The SRD, whether wotc likes it or not, created a net effect, where everyone speaking the same "code" has the benefit of making that game the leader by being the most ubiquitous. Ryan Dancey addressed this during the OGL debacle here and elsewhere during interviews, I think he referred to it as "network externalities."

The more people who use the SRD, the less people are using other game systems. It contributes to the current monoculture that is dnd. THe fact that they even tried to destroy the OGL is pretty alarming as to how out of touch they (management) are with the community, as the 5e SRD, and previous SRD's cemented wotc's position as the market leader (according to Ryan Dancey, who created the OGL).

2. DDB is separate, just like the DM's Guild is separate from other platforms, you have to exclusively publish content on the guild and nowhere else. They own both platforms, and yet they also have the legacy of the OGL from previous employees that have now left the company.

That's part of why they hate the OGL so much, because it was made before Hasbro had full control of wotc, and its a legacy of the open source movement, something that microsoft hates as well. Current leaders at the company are former microsoft employees, its probably not a coincidence.