D&D 5E Are Paladins Merely Mediocre Multiclass Fighter/Clerics?

[Dannyalcatraz]

Which stories are those? The aforementioned Holger is the only paladin in Appendix N of which I'm aware, although I haven't read all of it. Maybe you're thinking of The Twelve Peers? I'm mostly unfamiliar with the Matter of France myself. ETA: So I don't know if their stories involve being called into service by God or not.

Joan d’Arc was famously called to her holy warrior role by God- at one point believing the voice she heard was a sign of madness. So was David of the OT.

Being an adventurer seems like a strange fit then.

It is, but there’s definitely tales of Christian monks & priests who went to war in the crusades and other conflicts. While some received martial training- in part, for their own self-preservation- their primary role was ministering to the actual warriors. Couldn’t have them missing church services and confession. Especially confession.

Also, SOMEBODY had to see to converting the non Christians!

 

[FallenRX]

Many tables don't run the 6-8 encounters to level the DPR of a smite happy pally.

No im talking about all in damage here, even if you all in their damage is not that much better then martials or anyone acutally, it is not that good.

 

[FallenRX]

No it really is, it's 2d8 per slot level versus Rogue's sneak attack which starts at 1d6 and can only be activated if you have an advantage on the attack roll. Lay on hands serves as a replacement for self sustain spells and paladins can also wear heavy armor, they are very, very good with divine smite. Searing Smite spell plus a smite is insane.

I actually ran that math, youd be shocked how close the damage actually is overall, especially since DPR is calc over 3 rounds, they are much closer then you think.

 

[hgjertsen]

I actually ran that math, youd be shocked how close the damage actually is overall, especially since DPR is calc over 3 rounds, they are much closer then you think.

Are you assuming that the Paladin casts searing smite prior to smiting or are you doing a simple smites every round calculation versus a rogue getting a sneak attack every round?

 

[FallenRX]

Are you assuming that the Paladin casts searing smite prior to smiting or are you doing a simple smites every round calculation versus a rogue getting a sneak attack every round?

Yea, i assume better actually, and it really is not good espeically when you account how much resources is being spent here to do that, i actively look fo every way to increase paladins damage on top of smites each round to get the most out of it, at each key level of 1, 5th, 9th, 13th, 17th, and found myself deeply disappointed and quickly realized the power of all in smite is deeply overrated, that class is not that good, id argue(and a common thought in optimization spheres) is paladin is carried by Auras basically.

 

[ECMO3]

No it really is, it's 2d8 per slot level versus Rogue's sneak attack which starts at 1d6 and can only be activated if you have an advantage on the attack roll.

Yeah but you can generate advantage by simply not moving and using a bonus action, and with advantage you are more likely to hit, making that 1d6 worth more than it would be on a straight-up attack.

Additionally you can sneak attack from range, while Smite is melee only. In terms of being situational, I think smite is far more situational that sneak attack because of the melee requirement, and that is before you consider resource cost.

I would say that Paladins can situationally nova better than Rogues (when they have high level slots and can get in range), I would not say they can routinely nova better than Rogues.

 

[ECMO3]

Are you assuming that the Paladin casts searing smite prior to smiting or are you doing a simple smites every round calculation versus a rogue getting a sneak attack every round?

Ok here is the math for 8th level characters,

This analysis includes critical hits for both classes and assumes the Paladin could always get into melee and the Rogue could always get advantage.

Paladin:

At level 8 the Paladin has 4 1st level spell slots, 3 second level spells and 6 attacks over 3 rounds.

If you assume a 20 strength and a 16 Charisma going against a foe with a 16AC and a +3 constitution save your chance to hit is 65% and his chance to save against searing smite is 50%. As an aside, I think searing smite is weak compared to wrathful smite because it is a con save.

I assumed he cast Searing Smite at 1st level before attacking every round unless it was still active from a previous cast, and I assumed he used the highest level slot still available on a hit. I did not consider attacks on the Paladin for concentration, but had the spell end when the enemy saved successfully (and then recast next round if he still had slots).

Using a Greatsword - Average (median) damage over 3 rounds is 86

On average you end the fight with a median average of two first level slots remaining and zero 2nd level slots remaining.

Rogue:

For the Rogue using a light crossbow, with a 20 dex and advantage - Average damage over 3 rounds is 67.25

So the Paladin is doing on average less than 7 damage per round difference over the first 3 round of combat.

After the 1st combat the Rogue is doing more than the Paladin in Nova for the rest of the day.

 

[hgjertsen]

Ok here is the math for 8th level characters (as an aside, I think searing smite is weak compared to wrathful smite because it is a con save):

Paladin:

At level 8 the Paladin has 4 1st level spell slots, 3 second level spells and 6 attacks over 3 rounds.

If you assume a 20 strength and a 16 Charisma going against a foe with a 16AC and a +3 constitution save your chance to hit is 65% and his chance to save against searing smite is 50%

I assumed you cast Searing Smite before attacking unless you were already concentrating on it from a previous cast and I assumed you used your highest level slot still available on a hit. I did not consider attacks on the Paladin, but had the Paladin drop concentration (and recast next round if he had slots) when the enemy saved.

Using a Greatsword - Average (median) damage over 3 rounds is 87.5

On average you end the fight with a median average of two first level slots remaining and zero 2nd level slots remaining.

Rogue:

For the Rogue using a light crossbow, with a 20 strength and advantage - Average damage over 3 rounds is 67.25

So the Paladin is doing on average less than 7 damage per round difference over the first 3 round of combat.

After the 1st combat the Rogue is doing more than the Paladin in Nova for the rest of the day.

This analysis included critical hits for both and assumed the Paladin could always get into melee and the Rogue could always get advantage.

Yeah this is precisely why I say that Paladins are very powerful in practice because a lot of tables don't run many encounters per day so Paladins can have more impact on combat when it matters but if you do run a good number of encounters per day Paladins are going to run resource dry while Rogues will be able to sneak attack all day.

 

[Divine2021]

No.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Yea, i assume better actually, and it really is not good espeically when you account how much resources is being spent here to do that, i actively look fo every way to increase paladins damage on top of smites each round to get the most out of it, at each key level of 1, 5th, 9th, 13th, 17th, and found myself deeply disappointed and quickly realized the power of all in smite is deeply overrated, that class is not that good, id argue(and a common thought in optimization spheres) is paladin is carried by Auras basically.

... Bwuh?

Comparing melee rogue to paladin with duelist fighting style, both using Dex and putting their ASIs into Dex (way suboptimal for a paladin) and no smites:

• L1 Rogue: 1d8 + 3 + 1d6 damage (average: 11) > Paladin's 1d8 + 5 (average: 9.5) damage - but the pala isn't far behind and is much much better at taking hits
• L5: Rogue: 1d8 + 4 + 3d6 (average: 19) < 2 x 1d8+6 (average: 21). This gap only widens with magic weapons as the paladin gets to strike twice
• L11: Rogue: 1d8 + 5 + 6d6 (average: 30.5) < 2 x 2d8+7 (average: 32) Again there is a widening gap as you get better magic weapons.

The base paladin chassis is enough to more or less keep up with the rogue - while being able to tank a hit or avoid getting hit. Smite is a bonus on top of that. (I'm not using anything like Cha to attack or PAM Spear-and-shield)