D&D 5E Can I use action surge in the middle of another action (between attacks when attacking with extra attack)?

[FrogReaver]

Care to cite which rule says you can't break up an action?

The very same post you quote answers this….

I’m saying rules for exception based games can come up as part of the whole games text without an explicit line. That shouldn’t really be controversial.

 

[ezo]

Then this shouldn’t be hard - Where is the rule that says humans don’t get fire resistance?

It's not, but as I said before...

Please don't waste my time further.

Thank you.

 

[ichabod]

The very same post you quote answers this….

No, it doesn't. It says the "whole game's text" explains it, even though there is nowhere in the whole game's text that explains it. I explained how the whole game's text supports my position. You haven't even explained it, you've just referenced it like it's the Bible or something. You might be able to come up with an explanation of how the whole game's text supports your position. That's because this abstraction you've come up with is a subjective feeling about the whole game. It's not the basis for an objective ruling.

Your whole thing is that there needs to be an exception, but you haven't stated what it's an exception to. Exceptions don't exist in isolation, they have to be an exception to something. Show me the rule they need to be an exception to, and I'll buy your argument.

 

[FrogReaver]

It's not, but as I said before...

Thank you.

Then just post it. Not for me but for everyone else.

 

[FrogReaver]

Your whole thing is that there needs to be an exception, but you haven't stated what it's an exception to. Exceptions don't exist in isolation, they have to be an exception to something. Show me the rule they need to be an exception to, and I'll buy your argument.

You replied to my post right before the one we are referencing. It said:

The principles of exception based rule design coupled with the rules as a whole all taken together.

There is no single line, but there doesn’t need to be (see the example of humans and fire resistance above). If this was allowed the rules would say so somewhere - even if it’s just an indirect, you can take an action anytime on your turn.

Again. There is no single line to cite you. I’ve been clear on that. Why ask for what I agree doesn’t exist?

Instead it’s the whole text taken altogether and maybe your trying to ask for some elaboration there, but if so please drop the single line of text rule line of questioning because we both agree that’s not there.

 

[ECMO3]

Eh, if the character had access to Counterspell, this would be a no-brainer. Having to use Action Surge & Dispel Magic instead just seems like the hard way to do essentially the same thing. I think I'd allow it to fly.

She does not have access to counterspell. She is a 7th level Fighter (Eldritch Knight) with the Drow High magic feat which gives her Dispel Magic

 

[ECMO3]

Using your reaction to counterspell - explicitly in the rules.

Using your reaction to Counterspell Shield or cast Absorb Elements between two attacks you are taking with your action is NOT explicitly in the rules either and nothing I've seen would suggest these examples are any different than using any other type of action (bonus action, action surge action, haste action, or object interaction) between your two attacks.

I can understand the argument that it is not allowed, but then reactions, bonus actions, haste actions and object interactions logically aren't either, except as explicitly spelled out (example Tavern Brawler).

 

[ECMO3]

The main problem is the action surge can be ANY action, not just dash. A couple of classes can dash as a bonus action to emphasize the class's combat style so that kind of thing in their combat is expected. But the action surge is a lot more flexible, powerful, and significant. For example, the dispel magic might seem kind of cool, but it could theoretically be any 1 action spell. Evard's black tentacle, bless, dimension door, invisibility, harm, dominate person, etc. It just seem a bit... much... to enable a fighter (or more likely fighter multi class) to adjust mid-action with another equivalent action to add some kind of benefit to their 2nd+ attack in a round based on some reaction to or observation from their first attack.
I'm not sure there's a specific mind-boggling synergy that would happen using an action surge to interrupt an action. But the broad flexibility of the action leaves that door open.

It is not really interrupting any action. It is interrupting extra attack specifically, in largely the same fashion that movement or a reaction (like counterspell or absorb elements) does.

Being able to cast spells with action surge at all is powerful, but none of these examples seem very powerful at all in combination - make an attack, then AS and use a 5th level slot to teleport with dimension door so you can make a second weapon attack (at level 11 minimum)?

Make an attack, AS turn invisible so you have advantage on your 2nd attack (at level 8 minimum). You could shove prone then action surge and get 2 more attacks at advantage without even using the spell slot.

Attack then Evards Black Tentacles then attack again (min level 9)? How is that any different than using it before or after your attacks?

Bless after making 1 attack so you get 1d4 on the 2nd attack? Why not cast it before the first attack?

How is Harm or Dominate Person in the middle of two attacks (min level 16) any more powerful than being cast before or after the attack action?

None of these examples seem any more powerful just because you broke up the attack action and a few seem generally less powerful. Also none of these are as powerful as simply casting two leveled spells in sequence using action surge, something clearly allowed RAW

 

[James Gasik]

But using your reaction to counterspell shield (the example) between two attacks you are talking with your action is NOT explicitly in the rules and nothing I've seen would suggest this example is any different than using another type of action (bonus action, action surge action, haste action, or object interaction) between your two attacks.

Well, the rules for Bonus Actions states that: "You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action's timing is specified". That's about as tacit permission to use one whenever as you can get. (PHB 189)

And Reactions state that "a reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind, which can occur on your turn on on someone else's". (PHB 190) If you can't use a reaction when the trigger comes up, it would be a pretty useless ability.

Curiously I've noticed a discrepancy. Page 189 states that: "You decide whether to move first or take your action first", but then page 190 gives us "Breaking Up Your Move", which tells us that you can use some of your speed before or after your action, and even move between weapon attacks.

It's not wrong that you can move or act first, but it kind of muddles the actual rule which is that you can split up your move mostly however you like on your turn, with the exception of non-weapon attacks (probably).

Though unstated, I assume you can drop Prone or stand up at any time you could move.

At any rate, what we're left with is, it never states you must complete an action before you can take another kind of action. It can be inferred from the text that since some things tell you that you can do them whenever, that the default is that you can't, but this leads to odd situations in either respect.

For example, my prior example of Use an Object. You can do this once per turn without taking an action. Thus a character could take the Attack Action, make an attack, then if they have the need, interact with another weapon to make a second attack, and I don't think there's any issue with this.

If you're a Thief and you want to use your bonus Action to Use an Object, since no timing is specified, no problem. But somehow using Action Surge or Haste, which are additional actions on your turn, you couldn't? Seems odd to me.

But on the other hand, stopping between attacks during an attack action to launch a spell or use a magic item could be seen as problematic, though there's not many ways to do this.

It occurs to me, however, that you totally can do all these things, if you know what you'll need to do at the start of your turn- for example, I could Ready an action and set a trigger that happens "after I attack", Action Surge, take the Attack Action, attack, have my Readied reaction go off, then continue.

And if this is the case, it seems to be the ultimate in splitting hairs to be like "haha, you had no idea you'd run into a complication during your turn that would require you to set up a Readied Action, so you can't do that now".

 

[ECMO3]

And Reactions state that "a reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind, which can occur on your turn on on someone else's". (PHB 190) If you can't use a reaction when the trigger comes up, it would be a pretty useless ability.

An action surge states "On your turn, you can take one additional action."

The trigger event enables the reaction, using action surge enables the action. If there is no limits when "on your turn" can happen for a reaction, then there is logically no limit for action surge either, since it is the exact same verbiage.

The part about a trigger is irrelevant to this. The trigger would still enable it, just as long as it was not between your attacks. So hit a fire elemental with my first attack and take fire damage and no absorb elements (unless I stop attacking). Hit the elemental with the second attack and it is good . ..... that would be the logic.

At any rate, what we're left with is, it never states you must complete an action before you can take another kind of action. It can be inferred from the text that since some things tell you that you can do them whenever, that the default is that you can't, but this leads to odd situations in either respect.

Also in the discussion of "complete an action", when is the action complete if you hide or dodge?

For example, my prior example of Use an Object. You can do this once per turn without taking an action.

I believe that is an object interaction, Use an Object takes an action (or a Bonus Action if you are a Thief).