D&D General If faith in yourself is enough to get power, do we need Wizards and Warlocks etc?

[TwoSix]

Your divine celestial power comes from somewhere beyond/outside/"above" (or "below") you....in the case of druids and connecting with the natural/primodial/elemental/physical world, more of a "next to/all around you." But still, a power source outside of the self.

I think this is a question of definitions. Does the source of power have to be identifiable? Or can it be unknowable and ineffable?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

With evidence of Gods being being in DnD, I have a homerule for 5E that Paladins and Druids NEED to have a god in order to have their powers. To me, it doesn't make sense to me otherwise. As far as I know Clerics still need a God to function in 5E, so the homerule applies to just the Paladin and Druid.

Same, except in my world druids are animists so they’re not powered by a single god but a collective of smaller nature spirits.

 

[Voadam]

With evidence of Gods being being in DnD, I have a homerule for 5E that Paladins and Druids NEED to have a god in order to have their powers. To me, it doesn't make sense to me otherwise. As far as I know Clerics still need a God to function in 5E, so the homerule applies to just the Paladin and Druid.

3e Forgotten Realms had the same requirement for all divine caster classes: clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers.

5e has mixed messages on clerical power source in the PH though, the cleric section talks multiple times about getting their power from gods, but the pantheons section at the end has the non-theistic Eberron faiths with suggested cleric domains on page 296 including "The Path of Light, philosophy of light and self-improvement" and the DMG has all sorts of options for non-theistic clerical cosmologies and specifically says "In rules terms, clerics choose domains, not deities, so your world can associate domains with deities in any way you choose." Pages 12 and 13 cover animistic clerics and clerics of forces and philosophies.

 

[DarkCrisis]

I think this is a question of definitions. Does the source of power have to be identifiable? Or can it be unknowable and ineffable?

"You may not believe in the gods, but they believe in you." Is how I justify most other players wacky divine based characters.

 

[TwoSix]

"You may not believe in the gods, but they believe in you." Is how I justify most other players wacky divine based characters.

So you do feel the need to justify it, since you appear to view clerics as definitionally theistic?

 

[CreamCloud0]

I'm fairly sure you're being tongue-in-cheek with the example, but the real irony is the double subversion that there is a real, historical religious tradition beneath the shallow modern perspective. Far too many forget that Zeus, despite seeming like the god of one-night stands and bastard children, was in fact really important because he was the god of hospitality. He was Zeus Panhellenios, "of all Hellenes," yes, but he was also Zeus Xenios, Zeus-protector-of-Strangers.

I would absolutely, 100% be down for a genuine Oath of Hospitality Paladin. That sounds pretty awesome--if done correctly. Because there is something of the sacred in the bond between host and guest, between a fearful traveller taking a risk that this host can be trusted, and a fearful host taking a risk that this guest can be trusted. I imagine the Oath of Hospitality would strongly encourage wandering, providing succor to others especially in the dark and dangerous places of the world, collecting stories and interesting things to give in reciprocity to future hosts, and (when it's time to end the wanderings) looking for a great place to show hospitality to others.

But that's why the Oath of Hospitality would be more than just "I offer really good service!" It is a life genuinely and fully dedicated to making the world itself a more hospitable place, and to recognizing, assisting, and even rewarding those who put in effort toward that cause.

thinking about how i might make an oath of hospitality subclass,

tenants:
provide food and shelter for the weary
foster good cheer and entertainment to your company
bring comfort to the hard places

i'd probably steal the extended spell list from the halfling mark of hospitality, but swap out sleep for unseen servant.

3rd level is channel divinity features, one use i'd give it is instantly providing a short rest to CHA mod allies, the second would summon a gateway to a fully stocked and furnished cabin for 8 hours, which while anyone can enter the space inside prevents anyone from taking any action with hostile intent upon one another.

the 7th level aura would give resistance against taking exhaustion(or allows to roll a save on automatically inflicted exhausion like from beserker's frenzy) or the weakened condition and nullifies one level of exhaustion while in the aura.

not quite sure what i'd put for the 15th and 20th level features.

 

[steeldragons]

I think this is a question of definitions. Does the source of power have to be identifiable? Or can it be unknowable and ineffable?

I mean, from a DMing/world building perspective, yes it should be identifiable...even if that definition is "It's ineffable."

My world uses both.

Clerics (and other divinely powered classes) are - must, needs be- connected to an identified deific power (or collection thereof). A "God of such and such" for whom they are the spreader of their Word and exemplar of their Will, advocate, defender, champion (that deity's tenets and dogma) upon the world. That's part and parcel of what a Cleric is in the game world.

Druids -and those workers/users of "Nature Magic"- are connected to the mystical energies floating about and through and emanating from the "natural world," also called "the Green" or "the Balance," a.k.a. "Nature," writ large. They do not supplicate or invoke the God of Air, for example, to control the wind or entreat/contract with a Spirit of Beasts to speak to animals. They have the connection and training and knowledge to connect, harness, and direct the magical energies of/existing in Nature -call it a style of mysticism, I guess, if you want, as opposed to a "religion."

I'm presuming this is the kind of thing you mean as "unknowable/ineffable," a non-personified power that exists, that can be connected to, and utilized to make magic happen. Not a "god or goddess OF Nature" (which do also exist, are worshiped by mortals, and have/do empower priests...clerics of the Gods of Men -the world's existing pantheon. But Druids are NOT worshipers or champions of the "Gods of Men"), but Nature, itself.

But in a "meta" sense, at least imho, the DM should have an idea -however sketchy/hazy- of what/how these things work. So some degree of "identification/definition/explanation" should be available...both for players, and in-world consistency.

 

[TwoSix]

I'm presuming this is the kind of thing you mean as "unknowable/ineffable," a non-personified power that exists, that can be connected to, and utilized to make magic happen. Not a "god or goddess OF Nature" (which do also exist, are worshiped by mortals, and have/do empower priests...clerics of the Gods of Men -the world's existing pantheon. But Druids are NOT worshipers or champions of the "Gods of Men"), but Nature, itself.

There's a few ideas I'm thinking of.

First is what's been discussed here; the idea of "oath magic" wherein some few people who swear with conviction and purpose in their hearts are granted power. No one knows the "source" of this power, no god or divine agent or other powerful being lays claim to being the source. There are various theories that exist in the realm of arcane research, but no one has a definitive answer, least of all these paladins themselves.

Second would be something like Eberron, whereas the characters in the setting will believe in the existence of various gods, but these gods' existence canonically is ambiguous.

 

[pawsplay]

With evidence of Gods being being in DnD, I have a homerule for 5E that Paladins and Druids NEED to have a god in order to have their powers. To me, it doesn't make sense to me otherwise. As far as I know Clerics still need a God to function in 5E, so the homerule applies to just the Paladin and Druid.

So where do the gods get their power? Rather than clerics needing deities, what if it's deities that actually need clerics to get their powers?

 

[DarkCrisis]

So where do the gods get their power? Rather than clerics needing deities, what if it's deities that actually need clerics to get their powers?

Depends on the Realm i think. Dragonlance no faith needed. Faerun yes they need faith to survive.

I think