D&D General If faith in yourself is enough to get power, do we need Wizards and Warlocks etc?

[Maxperson]

Paladin oath only makes sense if the oath is an actual container of power.

Like a blob or cloud of divine energy cast off from the Astral Sea or Gods actions.

No. According to 5e the source of magic is the weave. The paladin's oath gives him access to the weave according to his oath tenets(righteousness, vengeance, etc.). A cleric requires divine power from a god to access the weave.

 

[Maxperson]

Why would you omit the part about a philosophy?

There's nothing to omit. In 5e it requires a god.

I personally view that backtracking as a mistake and have put clerics of a philosophy back into the game, treating clerics of a philosophy like the paladin's oath. In no case, though, is the power coming from the astral plane.

 

[Maxperson]

Oaths having mystic power does have mythic and fantasy precedent.

Greek Gods swearing on the River Styx cannot break their word, even the mightiest of the Gods Zeus is bound by his word when he does so.

Oaths have power in Middle Earth as well.

 

[Maxperson]

Again like the thread name.

Why would there be warlocks and wizards if you can just swear an oath to nothing and nobody but get magic?

Because that's not enough, that's why. The paladin doesn't get power because he said some words. He gets it because he has great faith and conviction in those words. The power from from the faith in the oath, not the words of the oath.

 

[Maxperson]

RAW 5e warlocks don't even have to have a patron that interacts with them at all.

PH page 109: "The Great Old One might be unaware of your existence or entirely indifferent to you, but the secrets you have learned allow you to draw your magic from it."

Pact can just mean hooking up to the arcane being power source battery if that is what you want.

I think that's unique to The Great Old One, though the outsiders/elder evils have very alien thought processes and goals. It can be unaware of you or indifferent to the power drain in ways that a Fey or God just won't. Try to steal power from a God or Fey and ending up dead would be best case.

 

[pawsplay]

Saying anyone could be a paladin just by swearing something is like saying anyone could be a barbarian by putting on fur shorts and working out. Paladins are exceptional. They don't just decide to be paladins. They have to swear a meaningful oath with sincerity, that reflects something of a paladin-like nature.
Not everyone can be a bard, just because anyone can sing. Not everyone can be a rogue, just because anyone could steal something. Not everyone can be a ranger, just because anyone can camp in the woods.

 

[Maxperson]

Which goes back to the powers being divinely granted which isn’t what 5E says. My Innkeeper can just swear an Oath to themselves and gain power.

I'm curious about how such an oath inspired by great faith, meets this...

"Whatever their origin and their mission, paladins are united by their oaths to stand against the forces of evil."

I mean, innkeepers unite against the forces of darkness!!!!!!11111!!!

And of course...

"A paladin swears to uphold justice and righteousness, to stand with the good things of the world against the encroaching darkness, and to hunt the forces of evil wherever they lurk. Different paladins focus on various aspects of the cause of righteousness, but all are bound by the oaths that grant them power to do their sacred work."

That TOTALLY says innkeeper to me.

Someone swearing an oath to themself is selfish and greedy, not someone swearing an oath of conviction to stand against evil.

 

[Yaarel]

There's nothing to omit. In 5e it requires a god.

I personally view that backtracking as a mistake and have put clerics of a philosophy back into the game, treating clerics of a philosophy like the paladin's oath. In no case, though, is the power coming from the astral plane.

I was talking about 3e that can be a godless philosophy, and 5e 2024 that derives Divine magic from the Astral plane.

Better than a philosophy, 5e Xanathar gets it right focusing on a cosmic force, a foundational principle.

The Astral in the sense of archetype or paradigm works too.

 

[Maxperson]

Clerics do not in fact need a god.

In the newest Faerun novel, the cleric of the group has no specific god but instead calls on different gods in the moment. Making promises or something.

That's interesting and I like that they did that, but not really in line with 5e's cleric write up. That's more like 2e? 3e? Where you could be a cleric of a pantheon.

 

[DarkCrisis]

That's interesting and I like that they did that, but not really in line with 5e's cleric write up. That's more like 2e? 3e? Where you could be a cleric of a pantheon.

Reminds me more of Benny when he meets the mummy from The Mummy.