D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

[Gammadoodler]

It can't be physiological since if it was, all biological creatures of the same type would do it. That can be true if we're willing to entertain fighter as having a specific origin (akin to how sorcerers get their spells) but the point is we're not. It has to come from something external (a supernatural effect) or it has to be something completely natural (and that gets us back to what mundane limits are).

Bear in mind, I don't have it out for just fighters. Rogues are equally guilty of having reality-bending powers and barbarians are barely squeaking in depending on how supernatural you view rage. I'd like to see all those classes be better defined or i'd like to see magic taken down a peg or three. But they tried the latter and it failed, so the only hope is to give martial's the toys needed to hang.

Are all Earth humans 7ft tall and play pro basketball in the NBA? Are all of them able to powerlift at exactly equal ability? Are all of them able to become kung fu masters and break stacks of concrete with their limbs and head?

Of course not. And that's plain old Earth human differences.

Who's to say what differences might exist for fantasy folk in a fantasy setting?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Are all Earth humans 7ft tall and play pro basketball in the NBA? Are all of them able to powerlift at exactly equal ability? Are all of them able to become kung fu masters and break stacks of concrete with their limbs and head?

Of course not. And that's plain old Earth human differences.

Who's to say what differences might exist for fantasy folk in a fantasy setting?

By the same token, why should we assume that the differences between humans in a D&D setting are wider than they are in real life? Where is that written (beyond asthetic stuff like a wider range of skin and hair color)?

 

[Remathilis]

Are all Earth humans 7ft tall and play pro basketball in the NBA? Are all of them able to powerlift at exactly equal ability? Are all of them able to become kung fu masters and break stacks of concrete with their limbs and head?

Of course not. And that's plain old Earth human differences.

Who's to say what differences might exist for fantasy folk in a fantasy setting?

Are there Earth humans who can eat nothing but tar? Can they run faster than a speeding bullet and leap tall buildings in a single bound? Mundane limits are fairly finite and to break them you need supernatural reasons.

If your answer is "humans on Faerun have abilities humans on Earth don't" then they aren't humans. Call them Faerunians or something so we know that they break the expectations. Don't call Superman a human from Krypton, call him a Kryptonian.

 

[James Gasik]

I think it’s worth noting-
Level 1-5, I’ve never seen a martial struggle to keep up with a caster. If anything it’s often the other way around.

This is very true, I haven't often seen a problem at levels 1-5, when everyone struggles equally. Certainly, the martials are given crucial tools at these levels to be more survivable, via Second Wind or bonus action Disengage.

Unfortunately, the game might not stay at levels 1-5, and cracks may start to show. Or not. It comes down to a lot of factors that one can't assume for a specific campaign or table, but potentially exist.

For example, a Fighter might never encounter a monster that reduces their maximum hit point total to the point ythey can no longer engage in melee combat and requires a Greater Restoration to undo in a timely manner.

Or your DM might think Wraiths are the bee's knees.

 

[Gammadoodler]

By the same token, why should we assume that the differences between humans in a D&D setting are wider than they are in real life? Where is that written (beyond asthetic stuff like a wider range of skin and hair color)?

Because we are playing a fantasy game in a fantasy setting with a whole bunch of fantasy stuff in it. And those humans are able to become fantasy heroes of all stripes.

(And this is ignoring that humans are 1 race out of 9 in the PHB).

I honestly have a hard time reconciling how people are able to look at PCs in a fantasy setting with all the fantasy BS going on and come to the conclusion that those PCs must be constrained to the physical limitations of Earth humans unless someone uses the word 'magic' somewhere.

 

[James Gasik]

Yes, using "human" to describe a fantasy race in D&D is probably one of the great mistakes. It brings a lot of inherent baggage to the game when we have to say "humans are just like us and are non-special" when every other species is defined by being special in a way humans are not, yet somehow, we have to assume that non-special humans dominate the world as opposed to some abjectly superior species.

It's especially galling when the true special trait of humans is that they can be part everything else, even if some settings state that their humans are actually the descendants of Earth humans who were somehow Isekai'd to a magical world to coexist with other species that should, genetically, have nothing in common with them...

 

[Remathilis]

By the same token, why should we assume that the differences between humans in a D&D setting are wider than they are in real life? Where is that written (beyond asthetic stuff like a wider range of skin and hair color)?

You know, that's a good point. People are arguing that humans on Faerun have ambient magic that allows them to do things like ignore gravity and shrug off swords nonmagically, how many would accept humans with natural hair of blue, pink or purple? Skin of gold, pearl or starlight? Eyes of yellow, red or pure white? No explanation, no cosmetics, no magic. Just born that way.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Because we are playing a fantasy game in a fantasy setting with a whole bunch of fantasy stuff in it. And those humans are able to become fantasy heroes of all stripes.

(And this is ignoring that humans are 1 race out of 9 in the PHB).

I honestly have a hard time reconciling how people are able to look at PCs in a fantasy setting with all the fantasy BS going on and come to the conclusion that those PCs must be constrained to the physical limitations of Earth humans unless someone uses the word 'magic' somewhere.

Amobg other reasons, because fantasy media has humans in it that don't appear to have abilities beyond what Earth humans are capable of? Certainly not without calling such abilities out.

Like @Remathilis said, if Faerun humans can do things Earth humans can't, then they aren't humans.

 

[FrogReaver]

This is very true, I haven't often seen a problem at levels 1-5, when everyone struggles equally. Certainly, the martials are given crucial tools at these levels to be more survivable, via Second Wind or bonus action Disengage.

Unfortunately, the game might not stay at levels 1-5, and cracks may start to show. Or not. It comes down to a lot of factors that one can't assume for a specific campaign or table, but potentially exist.

For example, a Fighter might never encounter a monster that reduces their maximum hit point total to the point ythey can no longer engage in melee combat and requires a Greater Restoration to undo in a timely manner.

Or your DM might think Wraiths are the bee's knees.

The point was more, if it can be balanced at 1-5 then the same balance paradigm there can be mostly extended to higher levels.

The problem is that the amount of growth martials get from level 6-20 and casters get from level 6-20 is extremely different.

As a thought experiment. Imagine a fighter that got an extra attack every other level past level 5. Total of 9 extra attacks at level 20, unlimited uses if indominatble, action surge and second wind. No new abilities given - just bigger numbers/more uses. Fighter is still as mundane as he ever was, yet likely overshadows all other classes now, albeit not in every part of the game.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Are there Earth humans who can eat nothing but tar? Can they run faster than a speeding bullet and leap tall buildings in a single bound? Mundane limits are fairly finite and to break them you need supernatural reasons.

If your answer is "humans on Faerun have abilities humans on Earth don't" then they aren't humans. Call them Faerunians or something so we know that they break the expectations. Don't call Superman a human from Krypton, call him a Kryptonian.

They aren't Humans then? And never have been, what with all their ability to become wizards and sorcerers and such.

Casting spells is already several steps beyond what humans can do on Earth. The decision to constrain physical capabilities is just kinda arbitrary.