Asymmetrical Complexity in RPG Design

[prabe]

Au contraire. Tweet was a wonderful DM, and everyone loved playing with him. He was so good, that WoTC's first TTRPG was Everway!

But most people aren't Tweet (like they aren't Arneson, or they aren't Matt Mercer, etc.).

I would have loved to play an AD&D game run by him.

Eh. As I said, I guess I would have been the first--which doesn't mean he wasn't a wonderful GM, or that everyone who played in his games loved his games, nor does it say anything about the people who loved--or would have loved--playing in his games; all it means is that he doesn't seem to have been a GM I would have much enjoyed playing with. I have a pretty good handle on my tastes and preferences, but I don't expect them to be universal.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Where did he say that?

Oops. My bad. In my haste, I misattributed the quote. That was actually the person reviewing Everway (Rick Swan).

I will edit to reflect the error. Thank you!

I was thinking about how Tweet was famous for his free-flowing, amazing DMing style, which lulled WoTC into thinking Everway would be an easier sale than it was. From Shannon Applelcline-

However, the freeform system required a very good gamemaster, and not everyone was a Jonathan Tweet or a John Tynes (who had been running playtests for the Wizards crew).

In other words, the problem was that the two people running the playtests were so good that they didn't realize that others might struggle with it.

 

[Laurefindel]

The One Ring rpg, especially 2e, is one of the most asymmetrical systems I know. I like player/GM asymmetry but TOR2 goes just a bit too far IMO. I preferred 1e in that regards.

Otherwise older editions or D&D (read pre-3e) were very asymmetrical in the complexity of classes. Mage was much more complex and tactical than cleric, which was more complex than thief, which was more complex than fighter. The gap between mage and fighter was particularly evident. It’s still the case but on a much lesser scale.

 

[Reynard]

Really what I want is to be able to run Shadowdark while the players play PF2E (or equivalent complexities).

It's too bad that I really don't like Cypher, since it sounds like it has gotten that bit down anyway.

 

[Umbran]

I'm just saying that workload and complexity might be related in many cases, but they are not inextricably linked. And, as I mentioned, i am not particularly interested in talking about workload in relation to GMing because it is something of a bugbear that distracts from such discussions.

I dunno. Workload is a likely indicator of complexity. Unless the GM has simple, repetitive tasks as a major part of running the game, complexity is probably the culprit.

 

[Umbran]

Really what I want is to be able to run Shadowdark while the players play PF2E (or equivalent complexities).

It's too bad that I really don't like Cypher, since it sounds like it has gotten that bit down anyway.

Cypher is asymmetric, but the player side isn't as complex as modern D&D or Pathfinder.

 

[Reynard]

I dunno. Workload is a likely indicator of complexity. Unless the GM has simple, repetitive tasks as a major part of running the game, complexity is probably the culprit.

Or scope of the campaign, or integrating PC backstories, or world building, or scheduling sessions, or preparing handouts, etc. So many things beyond system complexity contribute to GM workload.

 

[prabe]

Or scope of the campaign, or integrating PC backstories, or world building, or scheduling sessions, or preparing handouts, etc. So many things beyond system complexity contribute to GM workload.

Yes, those things can add to the GM's workload, which is why--to pick a specific case--Cypher is asymmetric in the direction it is. Rules complexity also adds to the GM's workload, especially because it tends to accrue non-linearly. There's also a big difference between your list--most of which can be handled between sessions, IME, and the rules, which are specifically in-session.

 

[overgeeked]

Really what I want is to be able to run Shadowdark while the players play PF2E (or equivalent complexities).

It's too bad that I really don't like Cypher, since it sounds like it has gotten that bit down anyway.

So what specific things do you want to be lighter loads as a referee? Chances are you can minimize things quite a lot.

Don’t like HP, use hits or clocks and countdowns instead. Don’t like monster stat blocks, use the chart in Forge of Foes or Blog of Holding instead. Etc.

 

[Reynard]

So what specific things do you want to be lighter loads as a referee? Chances are you can minimize things quite a lot.

Don’t like HP, use hits or clocks and countdowns instead. Don’t like monster stat blocks, use the chart in Forge of Foes or Blog of Holding instead. Etc.

Dead simple enemy stat blocks are definitely high on my list, and eliminating setting DCs in favor of inherent PC qualities is another.