Spoilers Star Wars: The Acolyte [Spoilers]

[Bedrockgames]

Again, if you watched three different series, sometimes with several seasons, and hated virtually all of it, I don't think it's particularly toxic to ask why you continue to watch. And, while I get that you don't like the writing, that doesn't make it poor. You claim that your criticism is legit without actually establishing that it is, in fact, legit. Just because you don't like it hardly makes it a legitimate criticism.

After all, you criticise the writing of Andor - a show that was nominated for an Emmy for it's writing.

I remember when I first got into Doctor Who, people who were old fans not liking the current season still watching, in most cases I think it was in the hopes it would improve.

Something winning an award doesn't mean it is above peoples' personal criticism. Especially now with fan scores and critical scores often so being wide apart. Doesn't mean someone is objectively right on either side, it just means they are looking for different things. Now if a critique is factually wrong, then I think that is a different story (like saying something happened int he show that didn't or calling something a plot hole but not overlooking explanations).

On 'bad writing', I find that to be one of the weaker criticisms of anything. Same with 'lazy writing'. It is vague, it is usually based more on personal opinion and taste than anything measurable and it often gets used like a bludgeon in critical conversations. I think when someone doesn't like the writing, rather than just declare it bad writing, it is more productive to specify what is bad about it (and by the same token if someone loves the writing, specify what is good about it)

 

[Bedrockgames]

I mean, not really. Paul is just reading into the show a lot more deeply, whereas you're responding to the surface-level messaging. That doesn't mean he's right and you're wrong, note, but they're quite different approaches to reading the text. I'm reminded of countless English classes - there's always the very confident and not stupid person who has the most superficial and obvious possible reading of a text - and they're rarely completely wrong, but they're the guy who is very confident Frankenstein was "doing his best" and the monster was just that, a monster, and so on. That's certainly what ol' Franky himself thinks.

Someone should start a Frankenstein thread because it has come up more than a few times in other discussions. I just re-read it, the 1818 edition. One thing I didn't know was the third edition (I think 1831) actually changes some of the themes, so it more about fate than Victor's personal responsibility (here I am going by peoples' second hand description of the third edition). I tend to agree that Victor is the monster and the monster is clearly a product of his actions: not the fact that he created it but that he created then abandoned it, and continued to reject it, to not recognize it as his own creation. That said, the monster does kill a child, have a women wrongfully sentenced to execution, etc. So he is still a villain too in the end, but a very sympathetic one and just as much a victim of Frankenstein as Frankenstein is of he by the end. I do think the different editions sometimes cause disputes in readings of it. I remember getting in an debate with a professor in college over the book (and in hindsight I think it may be because we were each thinking of different editions)

 

[Kaodi]

I wonder whether Star Wars will ever reach the conclusion that mindraping people is bad no matter who is doing it. Taking control of Torbin was bad, and when Jedi mind control people it is bad too. It may not be considered a dark side technique, but that does not make it good.

Anyway they pretty clearly show that Mae has some kind of issues when it looks like she is going to kill that butterfly-like creature. Her deciding to kill Osha rather than let her leave may just be dragged down by bad writing prequel Anakin tier writing rather than pointing to her being controlled. I also think it is within the realm of possibility that Torbin's guilt came from how the Jedi forced the issue of testing Mae and Osha rather than just leaving them to mind their own business. If a dark sider was there manipulating events it seems a bit too... convenient.

I am not sure I buy the general setup though. Why would the Jedi care that much about the witches? They and the Nightsisters have a long, troubled history. But I do not remember the Jedi trying to wipe the Nightsisters out during the Clone Wars or steal all their kids.

 

[MarkB]

I am not sure I buy the general setup though. Why would the Jedi care that much about the witches? They and the Nightsisters have a long, troubled history. But I do not remember the Jedi trying to wipe the Nightsisters out during the Clone Wars or steal all their kids.

From the viewpoint of the Jedi, these are children being indoctrinated into a cult - and yes, the irony is no doubt lost on them. They may feel an obligation to offer an alternative.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I wonder whether Star Wars will ever reach the conclusion that mindraping people is bad no matter who is doing it. Taking control of Torbin was bad, and when Jedi mind control people it is bad too. It may not be considered a dark side technique, but that does not make it good.

I haven't seen this show so it is possible the particulars of how it is handled here matters a great deal, but in general, with the use of Jedi Mind trick I don't see that it is inherently bad. It is no more inherently evil than a light saber (which is designed to kill). I think in both instances it is more about how the tools are used and both would require principled understanding of their potential evils in order to wield both. The Jedi Mind Trick is an example of something that can be used to avoid having to kill someone for example. When I think of the first instance I recall of the jedi mind trick, when Obi Wan uses it to help them escape detection from Storm Troopers, to me that seems like it was justified and not evil of Obi Wan to do. Had he taken it further, sure. Arguably using a Jedi Mind Trick in the Mod Eisley cantina would have been preferable to cutting off that guy's arm. Both actions would have been justified I think as he was about to kill Luke, but a mind trick might have resulted in someone not walking away from the even without an arm (can't recall if he tried to use one and it failed or if he just went right for the saber).

 

[Ryujin]

I haven't seen this show so it is possible the particulars of how it is handled here matters a great deal, but in general, with the use of Jedi Mind trick I don't see that it is inherently bad. It is no more inherently evil than a light saber (which is designed to kill). I think in both instances it is more about how the tools are used and both would require principled understanding of their potential evils in order to wield both. The Jedi Mind Trick is an example of something that can be used to avoid having to kill someone for example. When I think of the first instance I recall of the jedi mind trick, when Obi Wan uses it to help them escape detection from Storm Troopers, to me that seems like it was justified and not evil of Obi Wan to do. Had he taken it further, sure. Arguably using a Jedi Mind Trick in the Mod Eisley cantina would have been preferable to cutting off that guy's arm. Both actions would have been justified I think as he was about to kill Luke, but a mind trick might have resulted in someone not walking away from the even without an arm (can't recall if he tried to use one and it failed or if he just went right for the saber).

In the early days of the old WEG Star Wars RPG they made it quite plain that Jedi placed a very high value on life, even that of enemies. For quite a while my character would fight purely defensively. Many, many limbs, weapons, etc. were parted by parries. "It makes me sad, but they killed themselves."

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Episode 3 was very good. Im getting (in a good way?) a Medieval Church vibe from the Jedi. Now I want Spaceballs: The Inquisitortion!!"

There are real world historical presidents, such as the fall of the Templars, and the dissolution of the monasteries (watch Shardlake if you haven’t already).

And I enjoyed seeing a different Force Tradition. Could you say, Darth Sidious learnt these techniques to say make a Vader?

I believe we are intended to make that connection.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I'm expecting more flashbacks to add more perspective to what happened. Nothing I've seen so far explains why a Jedi would willingly drink poison. There's more to the story.

Clearly there is more. Mae couldn’t have done it, and it seems unlikely it was the Jedi (at least not all of them acting together.)

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Torbin's willingness to drink poison after 10 years of isolation is also indicating a strong amount of guilt.

Notice who's padwan he was.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

From the viewpoint of the Jedi, these are children being indoctrinated into a cult - and yes, the irony is no doubt lost on them. They may feel an obligation to offer an alternative.

Only the Jedi cannot detect irony, as Obi Wan so nearly said.