D&D General (SPOILERS for Vecna: Eve of Ruin) Are My Standards Too High for Adventures?

[wicked cool]

It’s the same approach they’ve had the past ten years. Are you saying their adventures haven’t done well over that time?



In part, but that’s way underselling the work that went into Curse of Strahd.


Even the original Ravenloft module was an advanced module that a DM couldn’t just pick up and run without prep.


Okay, so don’t play Rime. Play Tomb of Annhilation or Dungeon of the Mad Mage or Out of the Abyss. Try some of the third party adventures like Odyssey of the Dragonlords or Empire of the Ghouls, etc.


Not sure what you mean by the description but if you’re talking about box text, that’s a style preference that most adventures have moved away from.

It’s a video game that had more development and resources and writers and funding provided for it than years worth of D&D adventures ever would. It’s an apples and oranges comparison.

Not it really isn't forget the graphic etc
The plot and details that went into chunks of it

Spoiler-the underdark. We really haven’t seen anything produced like this from wotc. The closest we got was duergar in rime
The duergar have encountered the forge and there’s an evil drow plus other stuff
Phandelver and the above have an ooze encounter. The ooze encounter makes much more sense in Bg3. How does a Larian writer know this but Perkins doesn’t. Hint the ooze in Bg3 is in a corner tucked away and most likely all casual gamers missed it. Phandelver it’s right there basically where every bad thing would have passed it by

I could go on and on. The gith are way more developed in Bg3 . Why is Larian doing a better job with all of this

It’s just lazy or incompetence from people that are writing this. Why is the dungeon dudes adventure better. Because she they are more creative

We are discussing the vecna adventure and by all accounts it stinks or just not great and the main villian is underwhelming compared to mercers interpretation of it

Mad mage was better because it’s a straightforward dungeon crawl but it’s not great

Vecna strahd soth are classics for old geezers like me. Who the classic for anything the new writers have made.

Sorry ranting but not at you

 

[htap]

It's a bit hard to say whether they were cut or underdeveloped. There do seem to be numerous problems with the modern Wizards approach to adventures (and I mean mainly the last few). I've called out how their monster encounters don't work on battlemats or VTTs before.

And the errors in The Shattered Obelisk and numerous and horrendous. As a couple of my industry friends have said: there's something broken at Wizards of the Coast.

Which is unusual, because Wizards do actually work to a high standard most of the time. I might not like all their products, but I don't normally come out saying "this is undeveloped" or "this is badly edited".

The saving throw against the chime feels like a rules lawyerly interpretation, though. The chime states that the target automatically fails its saving throw if below 50 hp. "Oh, Legendary Resistance means they can make the save!" But that's a DM being a dick. It's clear what the intent is.

Text from book: "As long as Vecna is conducting his ritual, diamond doors are the only form of teleportation magic besides Vecna’s Fell Rebuke reaction that functions in this place." Huh, doesn't mention Vile Teleport! Oops. (Here's a really silly interpretation which is actually something Crawford has used before - Vile Teleport does not mention it is magical in the text, thus is teleportation which isn't magical! Sigh. This looks like an oversight).

So, it shouldn't be magical right, however neither is fell rebuke, yet the text specifies fell rebuke works. That strongly implies vile teleport is intended to not work.

 

[Faolyn]

That's an argument for never expressing displeasure. Good for vibes, perhaps, but impractical for a discussion forum where people don't agree.

Never? No. Of course you can express displeasure.

But Micah, you constantly do so. Even when it's not appropriate for the thread.

 

[MerricB]

So, it shouldn't be magical right, however neither is fell rebuke, yet the text specifies fell rebuke works. That strongly implies vile teleport is intended to not work.

Wizards managed to talk themselves into so many problems with imprecise terms.

I don't think that going full 3E keyword happy is the right move, but then they try to rule on the game as if it still used that format!

 

[occam]

Phandelver-you do all these side quests tied to rescuing a something and finding a cave. I’m at the part where the party finds the cave. Guess what the description of outside the cave stinks compared to much earlier stuff. The section stinks to be honest. The bad person is located within this section with allies and a setttung that is reminiscent of 1st edition

1st edition
Room 1 kobolds
Room 2 undead
Room 3 a griphon
Room 4 a red dragon

This happens in this part of the adventure and I had to laugh on how did the main bad thing navigate through all this with their allies

Maybe you need to take some more time to read through the description of Wave Echo Cave, because your criticisms are, frankly, bogus. Every inhabitant of the area has a reason for being where it is, which is explained in the text. How the BBEG and his minions get to where they are in the cave is also clear, with several sections alluding to their past difficulties with other cave inhabitants as the reasons for their current location. The ooze, which you mention in another post, is described as "lurking" in an out-of-the-way passage, "waiting for an opportunity to attack a lone target" (emphasis mine), not "where every bad thing would have passed it by" as you said.

Every complaint you've made about Wave Echo Cave is flat out wrong, which doesn't provide good support for your other criticisms of WotC adventures.

 

[occam]

I haven't actually gotten to this section of the adventure yet, but I was curious about these criticisms, so skipped ahead.

So I'm not sure if this has been discussed yet but the final part is pretty rough. Some issues:

The map for the cave, E1 and E2 sapphire cant be reached.

What do you mean? The text says this:

Other than Vecna, only the characters can reach this cave network—and only because they carry Vecna’s Links. No portal is needed to get them there; the characters need only think about entering Vecna’s Grasp, and the power of their Vecna’s Links will transport them directly to area E1.

Vecna as written cant use vile teleport

Yeah, that's weird, and likely an oversight as @MerricB said. I guess you could play him without that feature if you're strictly abiding by the text, but then it probably should've been left out of his stat block.

Vecna can't see though the walls

Everyone can see through the walls, if you mean the crystal walls in the Cave of Shattered Reflection:

Most of the walls are made of a translucent, purple crystal... Creatures on opposite sides of a crystal wall can see each other vaguely...

Translucent
1
: permitting the passage of light:
a
: transmitting and diffusing light so that objects beyond cannot be seen clearly
b
: CLEAR, TRANSPARENT

If you kill vecna the party loses

How do they lose? Wouldn't he still be disembodied for 1-100 years? Sure, maybe you're just putting things off for a while, but I think most adventuring parties would count that as a qualified win.

 

[htap]

I haven't actually gotten to this section of the adventure yet, but I was curious about these criticisms, so skipped ahead.



What do you mean? The text says this:





Yeah, that's weird, and likely an oversight as @MerricB said. I guess you could play him without that feature if you're strictly abiding by the text, but then it probably should've been left out of his stat block.



Everyone can see through the walls, if you mean the crystal walls in the Cave of Shattered Reflection:







How do they lose? Wouldn't he still be disembodied for 1-100 years? Sure, maybe you're just putting things off for a while, but I think most adventuring parties would count that as a qualified win.

The E1 you looked at is for Vecnas Grasp, I'm talking about E1 and E2 in the cave of shattered reflection. As it stands now vecna could just walk into one of those rooms, because he can go through the doors as normal, and just chill in there forever because the players couldn't do anything about it.

Everyone can not see through the walls. Its even mentioned that as a condition of having enough secrets the players can see through the walls normally. Which means they can not see well enough without that. Vecna as well. Even if you wanted to rule it that way it says if you are within 5 feet of the wall(Creatures on opposite sides of a crystal wall can see each other vaguely, provided they are both within 5 feet of the wall). Its basically a mix between frostedglass and a kelidoscope. You could maybe know someone was on the other side, but far from enough to be able to clearly see for targeting and such. Again, you could MAYBE make an argument that if you and your target are within 5 feet of the wall you could.

If you kill Vecna the party loses becuase it straight up says, the only way to win is to use the chime. It makes no mention of killing vecna as an option. Literally the only conclusion other then failure is reading the block from using the chime. If you kill Vecna, his spirit goes on and does the lich thing so you can't chime him. somehow the ritual must continue even if he devoid of his physical body, otherwise it would state killing vecna as a win condition. Its not even implied as a way to win.

 

[JEB]

Never? No. Of course you can express displeasure.

But Micah, you constantly do so. Even when it's not appropriate for the thread.

You're complaining about Micah complaining.

Of course, now I guess I'm complaining about you complaining about Micah complaining.

Quick, someone complain about me complaining!

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Try selling me swampland while your at it, you expect me to believe 60% goes to retailers? And 30% goes to distrubutors, while WotC accepts a mere 15% per book? That's a huge profit margin for Retailers. No way am buying that.

As others have said, no, that's not right - part of it was my mistake, part of it is yours (you're mistaking @Parmandur saying $15 for 15% and you've got the WotC-distributor cut backwards...) At any rate, no - it's like this:

Book Retail: ~$50 USD. WotC: $17.50 (less the cost of making it, naturally); Distributor: $12.50; FLGS: $20

Amazon, it seems, gets distributor price, so they might charge, say, $35 for a $50 book, give WotC their $17.50 per, and make $17.50 per themselves. In the time they sell 20K of them (making $350K less their warehouse and shipping expenses) your FLGS probably moves 20 and makes themselves 400 bucks, less paying their employees, their landlord, and probably the cost of shipping those 20 copies from their distributor to their store. (Personally, I drive an hour to pick them up, so time & gas).

But no, not 60%, and no, WotC's not getting 15%.

 

[TiQuinn]

Not it really isn't forget the graphic etc
The plot and details that went into chunks of it

Spoiler-the underdark. We really haven’t seen anything produced like this from wotc. The closest we got was duergar in rime
The duergar have encountered the forge and there’s an evil drow plus other stuff
Phandelver and the above have an ooze encounter. The ooze encounter makes much more sense in Bg3. How does a Larian writer know this but Perkins doesn’t. Hint the ooze in Bg3 is in a corner tucked away and most likely all casual gamers missed it. Phandelver it’s right there basically where every bad thing would have passed it by

I could go on and on. The gith are way more developed in Bg3 . Why is Larian doing a better job with all of this

It’s just lazy or incompetence from people that are writing this. Why is the dungeon dudes adventure better. Because she they are more creative

We are discussing the vecna adventure and by all accounts it stinks or just not great and the main villian is underwhelming compared to mercers interpretation of it

Mad mage was better because it’s a straightforward dungeon crawl but it’s not great

Vecna strahd soth are classics for old geezers like me. Who the classic for anything the new writers have made.

Sorry ranting but not at you

Sorry, just don’t agree with any of this.