D&D (2024) Greyhawk Confirmed. Tell Me Why.

[Staffan]

Source books? That would be only one book with with about 8 to 10 pages a piece. It think that's what WotC for them back in 3e, I think. (Explorer's Edition?)

Five Nations was a 160-page book covering Aundair, Breland, Cyre/Mournlands, Karrnath, and Thrane. That's about 32 pages per nation – Cyre/Mournlands got a bit less but that was used for the non-specific parts of the book – and that seems about right to me. So an updated version of that and two more for the other nations – could do one for the east and one for the west.

Now, I don't expect them to do that, because capitalism. But I don't think a one-and-done setting book counts as support. Support requires an ongoing commitment.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Five Nations was a 160-page book covering Aundair, Breland, Cyre/Mournlands, Karrnath, and Thrane. That's about 32 pages per nation – Cyre/Mournlands got a bit less but that was used for the non-specific parts of the book – and that seems about right to me. So an updated version of that and two more for the other nations – could do one for the east and one for the west.

Now, I don't expect them to do that, because capitalism. But I don't think a one-and-done setting book counts as support. Support requires an ongoing commitment.

What sort of updates would it need? Isn't the lore the same? I thought Eberron didn't advance its timeline, so everything said in any edition should still apply.

 

[Von Ether]

Mystara has a bit of the same problem as Greyhawk: it doesn't really have an identity beyond "The BECMI D&D world". If it's in BECMI, it's in Mystara. If it's in Mystara, it's in BECMI.

So domain management isn't so much a feature of Mystara as it is of BECMI. And as I recall, while the AD&D version of Mystara transferred over some of the mechanical stuff (e.g. secret schools of Glantri), domain management was not among those things.

But Mystara does has immortals and a whole region dedicated to their shenanigans - the Hollow Earth - but that might be the exception that proves the rule.

Unless you specially want to engage in those rule, how much does it matter in actual day-to-day play?

Honestly, for D&D (or the ttrpg industry in general) this close to the birds coming home to roost. Expansions are great, especially for the completionist, and gamers have come to expect them as an implied series.

But at the end of the day they need to also make a consistent profit to the point of justifying doing the whole series or you tick off the fans.

 

[Staffan]

What sort of updates would it need? Isn't the lore the same? I thought Eberron didn't advance its timeline, so everything said in any edition should still apply.

Well, there are significant parts of Five Nations that are mechanical stuff: prestige classes, monsters, feats, and so on. That can be replaced either with other mechanical stuff or with more lore. It's also an opportunity to focus on different things, and maybe rethink some of the things with 20 years of hindsight. You could of course also make it a bigger, proper 256-page book, which would make room for about 50% more stuff.

 

[Remathilis]

But Mystara does has immortals and a whole region dedicated to their shenanigans - the Hollow Earth - but that might be the exception that proves the rule.

Unless you specially want to engage in those rule, how much does it matter in actual day-to-day play?

Honestly, for D&D (or the ttrpg industry in general) this close to the birds coming home to roost. Expansions are great, especially for the completionist, and gamers have come to expect them as an implied series.

But at the end of the day they need to also make a consistent profit to the point of justifying doing the whole series or you tick off the fans.

I think part of Mystara's issue is that while it does have some unique elements, those elements aren't front and center. Not the way Ravenloft's horror, Eberron's magipunk/pulp or Dragonlance's draconic themes do. Immortals end up being a kind of technical gods, and a lot of the fantastical places don't matter if you aren't adventuring there. That's the side effect of being created to fill in the gaps of Basic D&D rather than being designed with a theme in mind. True bottom up design.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I mean, you have about 15 countries crying out for sourcebooks – five of which shared one back in 3.5e. But there's still precious little material available on the Shadow Marches, Demon Wastes, Eldeen Reaches, Droaam, Darguun, Zilargo, Mror Holds, Talenta Plains, Q'Barra, Valenar, and the Lhazaar Principalities. There are also lots of other parts of the setting that could use an update to 5e, or just delving deeper into various aspects. I mean, I know that's not the MO of Wizards these days, but IMO setting support does require some flow of product.

So, would that work out to one more setting book? I mean, quite a few of those areas were covered by the first book, plus I've used the wiki and there was never much on things like the Reaches (running a campaign there now)

I'm asking because it seems like getting a handle on "support" is the important part. Would another book that gave more detail on those areas take us to good enough support, or would we need more once we had that?

 

[Chaosmancer]

Now, I don't expect them to do that, because capitalism. But I don't think a one-and-done setting book counts as support. Support requires an ongoing commitment.

Ah sorry, should have checked the next page. An ongoing commitment to produce what? Because I think this is the problem at the core. I would LOVE to see more adventures written for all the settings. However, officially, WoTC has

Forgotten Realms
Greyhawk
Dragonlance
Eberron
Ravnica
Theros
Ravenloft
Strixhaven
Planescape
Spelljammer

And have partnered with the creators of the settings:
Grimhollow
Drakkenheim
Humblewood
Exandria
MCDM's setting, Arcadia? Not sure the name.

Now, even if they ignored the partnered content, to make a single adventure for HALF the settings, once a year, would be 5 adventures a year, which would take them from making 2 to 3 books a year to 7 to 8 books year. And, frankly, that feels like too much. Not even on the consumer side, I feel like it would have bad impacts on the designer side.

 

[Staffan]

Ah sorry, should have checked the next page. An ongoing commitment to produce what? Because I think this is the problem at the core. I would LOVE to see more adventures written for all the settings.

In the words of Ron Swanson: Never half-ass two things. Whole-ass one thing.

So, pick 2-3 settings that get actual support with 2-4 books per year. Feel free to make additional one-offs, but don't call them "supported".

Now, even if they ignored the partnered content, to make a single adventure for HALF the settings, once a year, would be 5 adventures a year, which would take them from making 2 to 3 books a year to 7 to 8 books year. And, frankly, that feels like too much. Not even on the consumer side, I feel like it would have bad impacts on the designer side.

I don't think one book a month would be overdoing it, to be honest. I don't know if that's what maximizes ROI, but it's certainly doable. I don't want to go back to 2e with a dozen books each month, or even 3e with 2-3 books per month, but one book per month? That shouldn't be an issue.

 

[Parmandur]

Honestly, for me, one of the best parts about this DMG Greyhawk Gazateer is that it won't have *-book "support."

 

[Staffan]

So, would that work out to one more setting book? I mean, quite a few of those areas were covered by the first book, plus I've used the wiki and there was never much on things like the Reaches (running a campaign there now)

I'm asking because it seems like getting a handle on "support" is the important part. Would another book that gave more detail on those areas take us to good enough support, or would we need more once we had that?

The folks at Wizards are generally creative sorts. There are lots of gaps still to be filled in Eberron. Filling out the nations of Khorvaire should be good for another 2 books at least, plus a remake of Five Nations (because we want the books on shelves in game stores, not just PDFs for sale via dmsguild.com). A 5e update of Magic of Eberron. A book on psionics, designed specifically to work with how psionics works in Eberron (or rather, use that as the baseline for a "generic" psionics book). An Eberronean monster book, providing both more breadth for various humanoids as they exist in Eberron as well as other Eberron-specific monsters (living spells, horrid animals, various constructs, various giant cultures, etc.). A book about various organizations, such as the Aurum, the Emerald Claw, the King's Lanterns, the followers of the Lord of Blades, various Talenta tribes or maybe pan-tribal societies, and so on. A few adventures. An in-depth sourcebook on a city other than Sharn or Stormreach – Thronehold has amazing potential for intrigue, what with being shared between the remaining four constituent nations of Galifar.