D&D 5E Is trafficking in soul coins ostensibly evil?

[Zardnaar]

If you spend one probably not. If you traffic in them, make them or seek them out probably.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Babylon 5: Law vs. Chaos. The 90s where a while ago now, but certainly after Reagan.

Indeed. And a foundational work for me, specifically. I grew up watching that show with my mom while it was fresh. I remember how "in the year of the Shadow War, it became something greater: our last, best hope...for victory."

The Vorlon/Shadow conflict has absolutely no care for "good" vs "evil." It might have, once, long ago, when both sides were primarily concerned with shepherding the younger races. Once it became purely about the ideology, not the results--about the means, not the ends, notably--it ceased to have any intersection with good vs evil.

Much more recently, Shadow of the Sun (Journeys Through the Radiant Citadel) is Law vs Chaos, and illustrates exactly why it's better for D&D than good vs evil: players are free to choose either side without having to be edgelords.

Eh. There's nothing wrong with a good-vs-evil fight. That's just one where either the DM discusses in advance with the players where they expect things to go, or the DM offers multiple "good" factions to join--or the opportunity to start/form their own "good" faction. I did the former with my group. I told them, I'll support whatever you want to do as PCs, just don't play villains. Making mistakes is great. Flirting with temptation is great. Struggling to fix your misdeeds is great. But becoming outright, proper villains, knowingly doing evil? I can't run an enjoyable game for PCs like that. It's not in my personality. So please, play folks who can at least be persuaded to be heroic, even if they aren't personally so.

Thankfully, all of my players are the kind of people who want to play heroes. Some with complex motivations or a neutral streak or a dark past. But heroes nonetheless. It makes my job a hell of a lot easier, and is part of why I work as hard as I can to support the kinds of stories they pursue. And all of us, as the rules say, "Play to find out what happens."

 

[Zardnaar]

I can see LN types going along with soul coins. They may not make the decisions but they'll go along with it as long as it doesn't personally inconvenience them.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Eh. There's nothing wrong with a good-vs-evil fight. That's just one where either the DM discusses in advance with the players where they expect things to go, or the DM offers multiple "good" factions to join--or the opportunity to start/form their own "good" faction. I did the former with my group. I told them, I'll support whatever you want to do as PCs, just don't play villains. Making mistakes is great. Flirting with temptation is great. Struggling to fix your misdeeds is great. But becoming outright, proper villains, knowingly doing evil? I can't run an enjoyable game for PCs like that. It's not in my personality. So please, play folks who can at least be persuaded to be heroic, even if they aren't personally so.

Thankfully, all of my players are the kind of people who want to play heroes. Some with complex motivations or a neutral streak or a dark past. But heroes nonetheless. It makes my job a hell of a lot easier, and is part of why I work as hard as I can to support the kinds of stories they pursue. And all of us, as the rules say, "Play to find out what happens."

Mechanically, good vs evil requires less work, because you can assume the vast majority of players are going to choose the "good" option (even where they are playing Conanesque mercs). So you only need to put the work into developing the good options. You see this discussed around CRPGs. Players demand that there be evil options, but statistically they rarely choose them (around 80%/20%), so there is a lot of work going into creating content that few players will see.

In Shadow of the Sun, both options are good - LG or CG. The drawback from a publisher's point of view is that means there are two different versions of the third act (and I added a third, NG "what would Picard do?" option) but the players are only ever going to see one. Any other work is wasted.

 

[Hriston]

It's an evil act but a minor one if not done to further the cause of Evil, so it doesn't make your character LE right away. But after, say, three to five times, I'd say you're headed for LE territory.

 

[Stormonu]

"The only way to win is to not play the game".

Soul coins sound like the epitome of a Lawful evil trap that just has no good escape plan or outcome. Whoever designed them at WotC was very much on their toes that day, not asleep at the wheel.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Mechanically, good vs evil requires less work, because you can assume the vast majority of players are going to choose the "good" option (even where they are playing Conanesque mercs). So you only need to put the work into developing the good options. You see this discussed around CRPGs. Players demand that there be evil options, but statistically they rarely choose them (around 80%/20%), so there is a lot of work going into creating content that few players will see.

Yeah, I'm aware. That said, the 80/20 rule kind of works in the other direction, too--you'll do 80% of your work on content only 20% will see, but failing that 20% can cause the 80% to also get upset even about content they don't use.

In Shadow of the Sun, both options are good - LG or CG. The drawback from a publisher's point of view is that means there are two different versions of the third act (and I added a third, NG "what would Picard do?" option) but the players are only ever going to see one. Any other work is wasted.

Right, it's an unfortunate thing. This is part of why I try not to really prepare arcs so much as events and resources--the players decide how to respond and what to draw upon. They can't be everywhere at once, though I try not to be punitive about that. Basically, they choose which threat to slap down now, which means other things have time to grow and become bigger threats later--but that just naturally leads to raised stakes for whatever they deal with next.

 

[Stalker0]

There’s a simple solution. You just need some authority to stamp the coin with a certified “evil soul bound for hell” stamp or something. And then the LN character just uses these coins, refusing to use coins that might be a “good soul”

After all, if paladins can slaughter hundreds of evil creatures and call it good, how can trading in a soul that was just going to go to hell anyway really be that bad?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

There’s a simple solution. You just need some authority to stamp the coin with a certified “evil soul bound for hell” stamp or something. And then the LN character just uses these coins, refusing to use coins that might be a “good soul”

Ah, yes, because all one needs to engage in slave-trading without guilt is to only trade in evil slaves!

Try again.

After all, if paladins can slaughter hundreds of evil creatures and call it good, how can trading in a soul that was just going to go to hell anyway really be that bad?

Every Paladin or LG character I've ever played genuinely regrets taking any life--even the life of the most dag-nasty Evil beings. Violence as a solution to problems should always be regretted. Deaths should always be regretted. Deaths you caused by violence, even though that might be exactly what is required, is still something to regret. To take a life leaves a mark on the soul. Recognizing that and taking every such instance as a reason to work even harder to pursue a world where that isn't necessary is the only acceptable approach. Anything less is defining which people are acceptable targets for guilt-free evil behavior.

 

[R_J_K75]

I would say yes, but -- big caveat -- I don't own Descent into Avernus, and thus am less familiar with soul coins than I suspect most posters on this thread are.

I own it, never read the whole thing but ironically the parts I did read and used was the infernal engines and the soul coins. I ripped it whole cloth and used it in an adventure, but IDR much of the mechanics. Id say that if a soul is trapped in hell then they are probably evil. Either they were through and through evil, or they did something extremely bad.