D&D General 5.5 and making the game easier for players and harder for DMs

[James Gasik]

My point is the reason I don't DM 5e anymore is because it has become too bloated and slow for my style of running the game. You like the increased complexity for your playstyle, so it makes sense that you are excited for the new edition, but the game is certainly driving off those of us who prefer a more rules lite approach. In other words, if I was going to DM a 5e game, I would stick to the 2014 core rules only, and not buy the new edition, because comparing the two, the 2024 version seems like it would be harder to DM.

And if the game reduced complexity for your playstyle, it would drive off those of us who prefer a crunchier rules approach.

 

[Maxperson]

@Arilyn made a post in another thread and 1 thing jumped out.

5. Surprised party just gets disadvantage on initiative now, meaning the surprised party could still go first.

I saw that post as well. What was the actual language used?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

And if the game reduced complexity for your playstyle, it would drive off those of us who prefer a crunchier rules approach.

What I see in 5.24 is that complexity is more spread over different classes. In their videos they explicitely said that this was one of their goals.
In the PHB there is a table where the complexity of classes is stated so bew players can make an informed choice.

Heavy outliers in nova damage and sustained damage are brought more to the middle.

Even with martials having cantrip like abilities, I am sure that the whole game is getting easier to run as a DM.

Although, I am already considering a house rule: you can only use masteries of the weapons you held in hand at the beginning of the round. For throwing weapons that means you can draw and throw a second weapon with the same mastery and use it.
So it makes sense for martials to have weapons drawn or use weapons in both hands.

 

[Maxperson]

What I see in 5.24 is that complexity is more spread over different classes. In their videos they explicitely said that this was one of their goals.
In the PHB there is a table where the complexity of classes is stated so bew players can make an informed choice.

Heavy outliers in nova damage and sustained damage are brought more to the middle.

Even with martials having cantrip like abilities, I am sure that the whole game is getting easier to run as a DM.

Although, I am already considering a house rule: you can only use masteries of the weapons you held in hand at the beginning of the round. For throwing weapons that means you can draw and throw a second weapon with the same mastery and use it.
So it makes sense for martials to have weapons drawn or use weapons in both hands.

I hope they rate those classes by subclass. A new player picking the "simple" fighter and not realizing that the battlemaster is much more complex than the champion might be in for a shock.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I hope they rate those classes by subclass. A new player picking the "simple" fighter and not realizing that the battlemaster is much more complex than the champion might be in for a shock.

At least you had 2 levels before you make that choice. I don't know where I had seen this table.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I ran AL twice a week at a FLGS for years in a high population density area with heavy tourism & seasonal residents... that it=group you are referring to is a vanishingly small segment of players. A great many of those newbies could not be newer strains of newbies. It is basic human nature to have a desire to be good at things you do and wotc has so far set the bar so low in 5e that it takes real effort to be as unoptimized as the game seems so concerned about.

The size of that subgroup is almost certainly a case of failing to filter salt like boredom fueled christmas tree PCs built in ddb just complete enough for them to quickly get through chargen hoops needed to see some higher level ability & abandoned unfinished PCs/NPCs leading to a massive oversampling on Wotc's DB crunching.

Could be an age and/or cultural thing perhaps? I'm based in a town in England and the AL club requires under 16s to be accompanied with a guardian. Likewise the other large club I'm involved with is part of the university, so is already selecting for a certain level of maturity.

The only times that I've seen player behaviour like that described by you, Bloodtide, Overgeeked etc is from when I was at school (and playing Basic and 1e AD&D, but I doubt that the edition had anything to do with it.)

 

[CapnZapp]

My point is the reason I don't DM 5e anymore is because it has become too bloated and slow for my style of running the game. You like the increased complexity for your playstyle, so it makes sense that you are excited for the new edition, but the game is certainly driving off those of us who prefer a more rules lite approach. In other words, if I was going to DM a 5e game, I would stick to the 2014 core rules only, and not buy the new edition, because comparing the two, the 2024 version seems like it would be harder to DM.

And if the game reduced complexity for your playstyle, it would drive off those of us who prefer a crunchier rules approach.

Almost every D&D alternative/hopeful/clone goes for some variant of rules-lite approach. To the point where I'm actively wishing for at least SOMEONE not going that approach. If that's what floats your boat, there are DOZENS of games to choose from, is what I'm trying to say.

But 5E is not my idea of a rules-bloated game. If you call 5E complex or bloated, I'm thinking "maybe this person hasn't experienced a lot of games..." There are several (mainly older) games that truly deserve being called bloated, complex, byzantine or even outright incomprehensible, but in my opinion no version of D&D has ever been close.

5E is easily lighter faster and easier to run than any other edition of D&D since, I dunno, all the way back to early AD&D, before all the splat books. And even then, 5E is still easier if not lighter or faster, because back in the day, people just didn't know how to write clear rules. Sure there's a minority that would disagree, but that's because as old grognards they severely underestimate the benefits of streamlined easy-to-remember modern rules: just because they once as teenagers mastered the AD&D rules doesn't mean a modern gamer would like to touch it with a ten-foot pole.

I would very much like WotC to have fun with their property. They could release a OSR-ified variant version of the 5E rules, where you for once get closer to OSR and away from the "high heroics" of mainstream D&D, without also reducing the game complexity.

Because Gasik isn't alone in feeling that all the "rules-lite" games out there are just missing something. Something that's been central to the D&D experience for many decades: the minigame of building your character. Just having AC, HP, a sword and a lantern is of course enough to personify a character, but it is kind of a meager charbuild experience.

 

[tetrasodium]

Could be an age and/or cultural thing perhaps? I'm based in a town in England and the AL club requires under 16s to be accompanied with a guardian. Likewise the other large club I'm involved with is part of the university, so is already selecting for a certain level of maturity.

The only times that I've seen player behaviour like that described by you, Bloodtide, Overgeeked etc is from when I was at school (and playing Basic and 1e AD&D, but I doubt that the edition had anything to do with it.)

are you asking me to help you track down a playstyle wotc seems to consider the gold standard while quoting a post where I referred to it as a "vanishingly small segment of players"? That is how we get the kind of Garbage in Garbage out set of priorities so many 5e problems comre from...

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

are you asking me to help you track down a playstyle wotc seems to consider the gold standard while quoting a post where I referred to it as a "vanishingly small segment of players"? That is how we get the kind of Garbage in Garbage out set of priorities so many 5e problems comre from...

No Tetrasodium, I'm asking if you have noticed a correlation between the immature player behaviour you keep on describing, and immature players.

 

[tetrasodium]

No Tetrasodium, I'm asking if you have noticed a correlation between the immature player behaviour you keep on describing, and immature players.

No. The only group I've seen any correlation with it is those who want to engage in play acting and have been sold a pack of lies∆ with stormwind fallacies leaving them believing that it will elevate their play acting as something beyond reproach. JC was clear "tell your story" and they intend to do so thanks to the ghostwriter behind the gm screen.and supporting case of sidekicks at the table

Unfortunately wotc seems to have designed 5e exclusively for the needs of that group and the result is the severing of natural selection through pc death that would save the other players from needing to be victims of the social contract left unwillingly supporting or accepting bad npc they would never associate or go adventuring long with. That remains the case until someone dons the mantle of bad guy and channels comic book guy to force natural selection/evolution of the PC or boots the hoodwinked player.

∆that one is a particularly good example because two years later the same person put out a mea culpa videos refuting it