D&D General Dragons of Chaos and Law in Mythology?

[Steampunkette]

It's probably not best to project our sentiments towards oceans onto ancient cultures.

Sure, but I was saying that we now know the sea is not chaotic but rather like clockwork with tides and currents and the like. We understand WAY MORE about the seas and oceans than the ancient Mesopotamian cultures did. (At least I -hope- that's the case...)

That putting "Chaos" on a sea-deity might place their conception of chaos in the sea, and that their definition of chaos might have been different from ours, much as it's been noted that chaos was 'void' or 'emptiness' before creation from several mythologies as opposed to our modern interpretation of it.

I do agree that the use of "demiurge" risks bringing in accumulated connotations to the word, which you point out here.

Those can-of-worms issues aside, Lambert here is translating "mummu" from Tablet I, line 4: "mummu tiāmtu muʾallidat gimrīšun." Looking through my copy of the Chicago Akkadian Dictionary, the word "mummu" commonly means "craftsman, creator," among a few other things. The term "bit mummu" is often used for a workshop or even a scribal school. The lexical entry in CAD also notes that "mummu" is also an epithet of Ea and Marduk* as well as even Ištar. So it is a comparable term to the Greek word "demiurge."

However, Lambert (thankfully) does not provide the only translation of the Enuma Eliš and there are other translations that you can find for "mummu tiāmtu" that you find out there, including "matrix/creatrix." For example, Kämmerer and Metzler, in a German translation after Lambert's, go with "Die lebenswirkende Kraft Tiamat" (trans. "the life-giving force Tiamat").

Of course, there may even be a pun at work here with mu-um-mu, as "mu" is the Akkadian word for "water" and "ummu" is an Akkadian word for "mother." However, I am not so well versed in Akkadian that I can speak to the merits of whether such a pun is at play here, particularly as the actual cuneiform used could discredit this. I will save that question for an Assyriologist. I also don't want to spend too much of my day going down the rabbit hole of this broader issue of issues and scholarly debates in translating "mummu."

* For example, in the title and epithets given to Marduk in the final tablet, he is called "mummu bān šamê (u) erṣeti" or "MUMMU, creator of heaven and the underworld."

It's definitely true that "craftsman" "maker" or "creator" or even "birther" could've been put in place of mummu and been as accurate as the original definition of demiurge. And has been in various other translations.

The point I was making is that the connotations of demiurge exist with the antagonistic position and all. And whether it was intentional or not, Lambert put that out there. Or in there?

The point was: Even in trying to communicate the same idea we use imperfect language and often imperfect understanding across different languages.

Here's another example. The Zulu refer to their groups as iziswe. English speakers in the 1800s translated iziswe as "Tribe" where it actually means "People" or "Nation". And then applied all sorts of assumptions to the term "Tribe" which contribute to the myth of African Timelessness. That African people are primitive in nature because Tribes are early bands in the 'civilization timeline' Western culture often ascribes to.

And that imperfect understanding, whether in Chaos or Dragon or Demiurge or Tribe or nation... leads to ever widening loss of understanding.

 

[Cadence]

There is Huanglong, the Yellow Dragon, that is the cosmic representation of the Yellow Emperor (Huangdi). He is credited with the creation of writting, the laws and the foundation of China, as well as maintaining the balance of the cosmos. He is also the ruler of the Four Symbols, the holy animals that rule over and protect the cardinal points of the cosmos.

I think that if Tiamat is the mythological archetype of the Dragon of Chaos, Huanglong is the mythological archetype of the Dragon of Order (what D&D calls "Law"). Obviously, Bahamut took that role in D&D. You can even say that Bahamut is not-Huanglong, for all intents and purposes.

There are more notable dragons in Chinese mythology that are also representations of Cosmic Order, like Bailong (White Dragon), Qinglong (Azure Dragon), Xuanlong (Dark Dragon) and Zhulong (Vermilion Dragon) of the Four Symbols; or the Dragon Kings of the Four Seas, Ao Guang, Ao Run, Ao Qin and Ao Shun (or Ao Ming). And the Japanese Dragon God, Ryujin/Owatatsumi. Etc.

Gygax is quoted as saying the metallic dragons were definitely inspired by the Chinese ones.

TSR - Q&A with Gary Gygax

This is the multi-year Q&A sessions held by D&D co-creator Gary Gygax here at EN World, beginning in 2002 and running up until his sad pasing in 2008. Gary's username in the thread below is Col_Pladoh, and his first post in this long thread is Post #39.

www.enworld.org

The general myth books I've gone through so far from that era have a few named ones - but I didn't see Huanglong yet. I'm adding pulling up the popular Chinese and East Asian myth books from the time to my list of things to do when trying to avoid work next.

 

[Zeromaru X]

This is how Humbaba is used by Final Fantasy:

Because sometimes people use the old name for a new character and completely reinvent that thing into what they wanted and that 'becomes' the standard going forward. Becomes the cultural ideal of what the -original- is, because of a widespread later creation.

Curiously enough, this is the same what happened to Bahamut. He started as this cosmic whale from the Arabic traditions that carried the world on its back (or more accurately, carried a bull* that in turn carried an angel that in turn carried the world), that may or may have not been an adaptation of the Hebrew Behemoth, but for some reason Gygax decided that he wanted Bahamut to be a dragon instead, based on the eastern traditions of good dragons.

And people in Japan loved that version so much, that they began to use Bahamut as a dragon in a lot of products, starting with Final Fantasy. And now our modern conception of Bahamut is that he is a dragon and not a whale, a conception that is still perpetuated by D&D and a lot of Japanese anime and videogames.

*As an aside, Kuyutha (or Kujata) is the name of the bull that is on top of Bahamut's back in the Arabian traditions, and in the Dawn War pantheon (from the World Axis cosmology of 4e), Kuyutha is a dragonborn demigod who serves Bahamut. I really loved that addition to the D&D mythology!

 

[Yaarel]

For Dragon of Law, I would look at how the Chinese dragon can embody the concept of Yang, which is kinda sorta like D&D Law. This dragon can be helpful or harmful, so the characterization to inspire a D&D Lawful Neutral Dragon concept, works well enough.

For Dragon of Chaos, I might look at the Norse dragon Níðhǫggr. This dragon punishes wrongdoers in a painful region of Hęl. But after Ragnarǫk, will carry them out of Hęl to return to life. The Dragon isnt especially Evil. This feels more like an inspiration for Chaotic Neutral. At first glance, "punishing" seems Lawful. But the concept here relates to "oaths" and personal commitments. So it might be highly individualistic, and self-directed. At least, the D&D version might conceive of a new Dragon of Chaos in such a way.

(At first, the encircling world serpent, Jǫrmungandr, came to mind to inspire a Dragon of Chaos. But this serpent is too destructive, too D&D Evil, to function as a Chaotic Neutral concept. There seems nothing "individualistic" about it. It seems collectivist, and in this sense, even Lawful.)

 

[Voadam]

*As an aside, Kuyutha (or Kujata) is the name of the bull that is on top of Bahamut's back in the Arabian traditions, and in the Dawn War pantheon (from the World Axis cosmology of 4e), Kuyutha is a dragonborn demigod who serves Bahamut. I really loved that addition to the D&D mythology!

Neat, where is that detailed in 4e?

 

[Aldarc]

Curiously enough, this is the same what happened to Bahamut. He started as this cosmic whale from the Arabic traditions that carried the world on its back (or more accurately, carried a bull* that in turn carried an angel that in turn carried the world), that may or may have not been an adaptation of the Hebrew Behemoth, but for some reason Gygax decided that he wanted Bahamut to be a dragon instead, based on the eastern traditions of good dragons.

Cognates. Hebrew is a Northwest Semitic language, and Arabic is a South Semitic language. But just like Gary Gygax, the Arabic tradition may have mixed their mythological monsters up, with this case being between the Leviathan and the Behemoth in earlier Judean mythology.

 

[Zeromaru X]

Neat, where is that detailed in 4e?

Draconomicon 2: Metallic Dragons. In the Hall of Dragons section, in the entry that talks about Bahamut.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Apep/Apophis from Egyptian mythology is a giant snake, embodiment of chaos, and nemesis of Ra.