D&D (2024) Should 2014 Half Elves and Half Orcs be added to the 2025 SRD?

[Maxperson]

The Turani/Shou is literally the same of @Mistwell 's Korean/African example. Human heritage in 5e has no mechanical representation. Any attempt to represent such a blending is 100% RP. And we're fine with that because we wouldn't DARE give human heritages any mechanical standing. It shows that we as players tolerate the concept of mixed ancestry being only aesthetic as long as there are no mechanical elements attached.

Yes. We want the mechanics to be mixed, because genetics mix. We are okay with humans being cosmetic only, because WotC(rightly) wouldn't touch human subraces with a 1000 foot pole. If humans did have mechanically different subraces, we would want those mechanics to be mixed as well.

The high/Drow example shows a much better example. They are both elves and there should be no logical reason they can't interbreed. But the two types have mechanical differences. They are 75% the same traits, but the question comes on how you represent that remaining 25%.

All of the mixed subraces of the same race have this issue. Hill Dwarf and Mountain Dwarf, Deep Gnome and Garden Gnome, etc.

You just mix the mechanics on a case by case basis. Work with your DM. RPGs do not have to figure out every possible circumstance and put it into the books. They can't do that.

This is how I would do a High Elf/Dark Elf mix. I'm using the 2014 versions, because I have a headache and don't want to look up the playtest versions.

The PC would get the stat bonus of the players choice. The Dex would be +2, and then player choice of +1 Int or +1 Cha. Drow have darkvision, but high elves don't. I'd give the PC darkvision of 120/2 which gives the PC 60 feet. Better than the high elf, but worse than a pure(for lack of a better term) drow. Sunlight sensitivity seem cultural, so that would only apply to the PC if raised by the Drow parent in the underdark. Since both get magic, I'd give the player a cantrip of his choice and then at 3rd the option to get faerie fire or dancing lights, and at 5th level faerie fire, a dancing lights or darkness, depending on the 3rd level choice. Elf weapon training would be a no unless raised by the High Elf parent as that is cultural. Same with Drow weapon training. Since there's no real power increase in that mix, I'd also just let the PC have the extra language. And done!

It wasn't hard to come up with an appropriate mix for those two subraces and I could do something similar for any mix of subraces from the same parent race. WotC doesn't have to worry about that and can just come up with rules for two different races interbreeding.

Suffiice to say that if "pick an elf, re flavor it to half-elf/human" is bad and possibly offensive because it reduces the effect of the second parent to only aesthetics, then the Turani/Shou should be similarly bad (both parents are only aesthetics)

One does not lead to the other, because only one has mechanical differences. It's only bad for the elf/human mix, because not mixing the mechanics denies the mixing. If there were no mechanical differences between elf and human, then purely cosmetic mixing would be okay for them as well.

And we let both of these corner cases ride because nobody cared until they removed half-bteed races from the game.

To be honest, I never really thought about how two different elven subraces would mix until you asked the question. It wasn't that I didn't care, but that it just didn't come up. I've never tried it as a player and none of my players have asked.

Which brings me to the only solutions. You either completely redesign the species system with an eye towards intermixing traits, most likely though a customization system (which, knowing most players, means pure blood species will never be used. Look at how the fixed backgrounds are already being rejected for customized ones. You really think a species mixing system isn't going to be similarly used to pick all the best traits?) or you make it purely aesthetic and just pick one set of stats.

First, they won't be able to pick all of the best traits. If they did make such a system, the various traits would have to be given a weighting. weak = 1 point, moderate = 2 points, and strong = 3 points. Or something similar. A mixed race would be capped at the same total weighting of a single race. Picking all the best traits would be too costly.

Second, mix and match as you please or purely aesthetic is a False Dichotomy. I just provided a 3rd way to do it. And a fourth way to do it is not to let every single race intermix. Most species can't interbreed. Human/Elf and Human/Orc can be the two that can. Nothing wrong with saying that the two exceptions that have been in the game since the early days remain the only two. And I will bet that more ways can be figured out.

 

[Maxperson]

I mean why does something need to look 'human' to be playable?

Nothing preventing monstrous looking orcs from still being morally good.

While you are correct in both of those statements, humans are human and we like things that are familiar to us. Just look at all the flack that Loxodons, Tortles and the other less human looking races get. If you changed all of the races to look completely inhuman you'd just end up seeing a massive rise in the number of human PCs played. Driving players away from playing the other races is probably not what WotC wants to happen.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

They are too scared to rename half elf and half orc.

Ironically both Eberron and Pathfinder have quite happily renamed them.

 

[Maxperson]

maybe, but then we are back where we started, with a few more mixed races thrown in. I thought the whole point was to get away from that in the first place…

It’s definitely good enough for some and I guess I would not care either way, but when coming up with an approach to use, I’d be more inclined to start with an unrestricted mix and match along the lines of A5e over that. No matter which specific combinations you include, someone will always want one you did not

This mentality is why we only get bland kitchen sink settings from WotC. It's okay to say no to things. And of course, you are always free to say yes to any mix and come up with mechanics for it.

 

[CreamCloud0]

What makes it a meaningless facade? IRL, cultures are entirely a product of history, arts, traditions, and so forth, not +2 to dexterity, dark vision, or whatever. Those things are far from meaningless.

The erasure, to me, seems to come from trying to reduce complex people to a few mechanics based on stereotypes, as if that is all they are. And to pick and choose who gets to be represented, while denying the existence of anyone who doesn't those few, narrow stereotypes.

I challenge you are anyone else to offer an answer to my question above: if mechanics are all that matter, why stop at halves? Why does someone who is, per my example, 1/8th of different species not matter?

IRL everyone in every single culture is human, that's why there's no deviation, you can't ask why species features aren't different when you're comparing cultures, we could be sterotypes if we ever actually had any other species to compare ourselves to, actually in fact, we do! there are horses and dogs and crabs and lions and goats and bears and octopus, cats have darkvision, wolves have enhanced senses, fish have waterbreathing, humans have tool expertise!

 

[Frozen_Heart]

It still seems like a huge part of the issue is that many people view the different playables as equivalent to irl human ethnicities, while other people view them as completely different species like a tortoise and a hare.

So to one group, the idea of hybrids is things like narlugas, ligers, and pizzly bears. Mixed species individuals with completely different traits to their parents.

To the other group, suggesting that mixed race people are have different traits and features on the level of a species is outright 1940's level Germany eugenics.

 

[Remathilis]

You choose which mix species you're going to support and create a custom species for them with a combination of their parent species traits and unique ones that justify their existence.

You say we're only doing human/elves, human/orcs human/dwarfs, dwarf/halflings, gnome/halflings, abd dragonborn/kobolds and That's it.

There is no requirement to support every combination.

Second, mix and match as you please or purely aesthetic is a False Dichotomy. I just provided a 3rd way to do it. And a fourth way to do it is not to let every single race intermix. Most species can't interbreed. Human/Elf and Human/Orc can be the two that can. Nothing wrong with saying that the two exceptions that have been in the game since the early days remain the only two. And I will bet that more ways can be figured out.

And, we're back to "MY preferred combos are legitimate because the rules support them. YOUR preferred combos are illegitimate because they lack rules support and thus cannot happen."

Honestly, I think at this point I would prefer NO intermixing period. None. No elf-human, no orc-human, no orc-ogre, nothing. Everyone swims with their own kind and is completely sterile to others. I'd rather have nothing, than an "only the good ones" system.

 

[Mistwell]

The Turani/Shou is literally the same of @Mistwell 's Korean/African example.

Then you didn't understand the example, as it was about how a person of real life Korean/African heritage feels about representation of mixed heritage. Not how you would literally present that kind of heritage in the game. Having rules to have mixed heritage when there ARE rules for heritages is what would be meaningful - not when there are no rules for heritages.

 

[Remathilis]

We want the mechanics to be mixed, because genetics mix. We are okay with humans being cosmetic only, because WotC(rightly) wouldn't touch human subraces with a 1000 foot pole. If humans did have mechanically different subraces, we would want those mechanics to be mixed as well.

Beyond discussing to death Elrond's choice of his elf or mortal parentage, let's look at a few other mixes for Sci-Fi.

Jacen Syndulla: Half-human, half-Twilek. Looks completely human with a slight green complexion.
Spock: Half-human, half-Vulcan. Looks and acts Vulcan but has heightened emotional responses due to human heritage.
The Doctor: Half-human, Half-Time lord*. The 8th Doctor looks and acts like a time-lord except for human retinas. (granted, time lords look human on first blush, but he kept the bicirculatory system of a time lord)

None of those characters had mixed genetic elements, only minor cosmetic or personality changes. A species which does not overwhelming favor one parent is pretty rare in fiction, but if you know of any, I'm interested.


* Obviously, this a controversial and convoluted bit of lore. But at the time when it was in continuity, it fit the pattern.

 

[Remathilis]

Then you didn't understand the example, as it was about how a person of real life Korean/African heritage feels about representation of mixed heritage. Not how you would literally present that kind of heritage in the game. Having rules to have mixed heritage when there ARE rules for heritages is what would be meaningful - not when there are no rules for heritages.

So how would said player react to a human of mixed heritage in D&D where there are no options? Does he feel offended that there is no mechanical way to represent his dual heritage? That it's purely cosmetic on that level?