D&D (2024) Should 2014 Half Elves and Half Orcs be added to the 2025 SRD?

[Maxperson]

It still seems like a huge part of the issue is that many people view the different playables as equivalent to irl human ethnicities, while other people view them as completely different species like a tortoise and a hare.

So to one group, the idea of hybrids is things like narlugas, ligers, and pizzly bears. Mixed species individuals with completely different traits to their parents.

To the other group, suggesting that mixed race people are have different traits and features on the level of a species is outright 1940's level Germany eugenics.

The Narluga don't have the single long tooth of the Narwhal, but have 18 spiraled(like the Narwhal horn) teeth. That's 17 more than a Narwhal and 22 less than a Baluga. The Narluga also have a greater C/N concentration than either parent and a larger skull than either parent. If they could breed true, it would be a new species.

Ligers grow larger than either parent. They are social like lions, but like swimming like tigers. They also tend to live longer than their parents. And again, the ability to breed true would create a new species.

Interestingly, Pizzly Bears have more even mixing of traits, rather than new traits, and also seem to be able to breed true.

 

[Maxperson]

And, we're back to "MY preferred combos are legitimate because the rules support them. YOUR preferred combos are illegitimate because they lack rules support and thus cannot happen."

I honestly don't know what you are talking about. I provided a way that could do every mix and also one where it was limited. Nor did I give an opinion of which ones I prefer(I dislike half-orcs and wouldn't mind a human/dwarf mix). There are probably others.

Honestly, I think at this point I would prefer NO intermixing period. None. No elf-human, no orc-human, no orc-ogre, nothing. Everyone swims with their own kind and is completely sterile to others. I'd rather have nothing, than an "only the good ones" system.

So cross out representation in the game of mixed race folks who play?

 

[W'rkncacnter]

But that doesn't actually address the part where WotC thinks that even the lore existence of mixed species is bad, which is why they're going along retconning them out of prior adventures.

they're WHAT?

 

[Mistwell]

So how would said player react to a human of mixed heritage in D&D where there are no options? Does he feel offended that there is no mechanical way to represent his dual heritage? That it's purely cosmetic on that level?

Ask them. I am not speaking for someone, I am repeating what I've seen said. Every person of mixed heritage who I've seen comment on the topic said they liked half-elves and felt seen by the concept.

And every person I've seen say this system of "just pick one parent and use that heritage only" has never also said they were themselves of mixed heritage.

Maybe there are some who are happy with this rule, but I have yet to see someone say that.

I am responding to someone in this thread (not you) who has beating the drum of inclusivity for a year now non-stop, and I thought it a good time to point out their position on this topic was about as non-inclusive as you could get all being claimed to be about inclusivity. I've yet to hear a good response to that, as all the responses come down to "page count" and "complex" and suddenly none of the responses are about actual inclusivity anymore.

If there is an rules-based issue with inclusivity on the topic of race/heritage, then make the rules for mixed heritage be actually about making people of real life mixed heritage feel seen. I have never seen anyone claim it makes them feel seen to pick rules for just one parentage and ignore the other parents heritage in the rules itself, and just use role playing.

Either the rules themselves (not role playing) should reflect inclusivity, or role playing as an answer would have been sufficient for inclusivity all along in 2014. In which case, role playing as an answer would have been fine for half-orcs and half-elves if those were concepts you didn't like in your game for 2014 and they never would have been removed for 2024 in the first place because nobody would have objected to begin with.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Ironically both Eberron and Pathfinder have quite happily renamed them.

In a lot of ways Eberron is as far away from BOG-standard D&D as WotC lets them be.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

they're WHAT?

In material which covers areas which have been covered in the past, they're retconning existing named half-elf and half-orc characters into full elves and orcs.

 

[Maxperson]

Beyond discussing to death Elrond's choice of his elf or mortal parentage, let's look at a few other mixes for Sci-Fi.

Jacen Syndulla: Half-human, half-Twilek. Looks completely human with a slight green complexion.

We don't know enough about him yet. He might have other traits not yet shown.

Spock: Half-human, half-Vulcan. Looks and acts Vulcan but has heightened emotional responses due to human heritage.

He also had Vulcan pon farr urges like a pure Vulcan and those emotional responses due to he human heritage caused him not to act like a pure Vulcan. That's why he had issues on Vulcan. He also survived a blood draining creature, because his blood isn't completely like a human, but still was affected to a degree, because he is part human.

The Doctor: Half-human, Half-Time lord*. The 8th Doctor looks and acts like a time-lord except for human retinas. (granted, time lords look human on first blush, but he kept the bicirculatory system of a time lord)

As you note, the Doctor is a bit of an oddball.

None of those characters had mixed genetic elements, only minor cosmetic or personality changes. A species which does not overwhelming favor one parent is pretty rare in fiction, but if you know of any, I'm interested.

Except that we know for a fact that Spock did, because it came up. And we don't know enough of Jacen to determine that he doesn't.

As for mixed features in fiction...

Wil Ohmsford who was more human than elf, but still was able to use the elfstones due to that bit of elven heritage.

Every changeling in The Dresden Files. Unless they go fully fey, they are a pretty even mix of human and fey with abilities in the middle.

Fleur Delacour from Harry Potter was mixed human and veela and had more abilities than human, but less than a full veela.

As you note, all the half-elves in Middle Earth, as well as the Dunedain and Numenorians who had powers such as mind speech due to their non-human bloodline.

Calis from Midkemia(Raymond Feist is the author) has an elven and a valheru parent and is more than an elf, but less than a full valheru in ability and power.

In David Drake's Lord of the Isles there a few human/other(can't remember the names) individuals with power beyond human, but less than the parent.

Neil Gaiman in Anansi Boys and American Gods. The scions of god and man are more than human, but less than full god with their abilities.

L.E. Modesitt in the Order War series. Those with magical powers have mixed blood from their ancestors, but not as strong because it's not pure.

Blade.

I could find a lot more if I tried.

Edit: All the half-gods from Percy and the Olympians. Hagrid. Luthien(half elf/half-maia). Aquaman who could breath in air and in water, unlike both parents, and was stronger than the other Atlanteans. Hellboy. Sisko who was half Prophet. More and just keep popping to mind.

 

[Micah Sweet]

In material which covers areas which have been covered in the past, they're retconning existing named half-elf and half-orc characters into full elves and orcs.

Yup. It's pretty awful.

 

[Clint_L]

Ask them. I am not speaking for someone, I am repeating what I've seen said. Every person of mixed heritage who I've seen comment on the topic said they liked half-elves and felt seen by the concept.

I don't buy that argument. Not for a second.

IRL, the terms "half-X" are widely considered offensive, particularly by the folks who have traditionally been targeted (yes, targeted) by them. Now we're hearing that no, keeping half-elves and half-orcs is really about diversity and inclusion. Not about keeping the traditional two Tolkien half-races that reflect the cultural assumptions of the mid-20th century British Empire.

 

[Mistwell]

I don't buy that argument. Not for a second.

OK? Not selling it. I answered what I was asked.

IRL, the terms "half-X" are widely considered offensive

They've posted HERE saying it. And I bever said the name had to be half-something, I said inclusivity-wise the concept should be represented in the rules mechanics and not just role playing. You can name it something better I think.

And my reasons for liking half-elves (but not half-orcs) are not relevant to this side topic. I was responding to someone else saying their reason was inclusivity, and so talking about that topic.